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Podcast Transcript

Whats Trust Got to do With It

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:06  
Welcome to Your Authentic Path To Powerful Leadership with Marsha Clark where we believe there's a better way to be a woman today! With research, tools, and our own personal experiences, join us on this journey to become a powerful leader for our organizations, our communities, and our lives. But today, Marsha and I are super excited to welcome one of our favorite researchers and authors!  But first, Marsha... welcome!

Marsha Clark  0:38  
Well, thank you very much Wendi. I'm excited to be here today. And let me add my welcome to our viewers and our listeners. We're happy that you're able to join us today. And we're also happy to introduce you to one of our longtime partners, because we couldn't even think about the work that we're doing around power and around leadership without bringing in the topic of trust. And we have been doing this work both from a programming a coaching... I've included this work in my new book, "Embracing Your Power," and the subtitle of that book is "a woman's paths to authentic leadership and meaningful relationships." And we couldn't talk about relationships if we weren't ready to talk about trust. And so I am very happy to introduce you today to one of our longtime partners, Dr. Dennis Reina. So let me welcome you, Dennis! Thank you for being here and joining us today.

Dr. Dennis Reina  1:33  
Well, it's so much a pleasure to be here with you two ladies. And to really talk about this topic that's both near and dear to me, and to my lovely bride of 31 years - Dr. Michelle, Reyna. We are so excited to be here with you. And we look forward to a very fun, interactive, and engaging session.

Wonderful. Well Dr. Reina before we get started, you slightly referenced your wife. So my understanding is that you're one half of the, as Marsha calls it, "Power Team" on the topic of trust. So let us tell us about that.

Well, yes, you know, for 31 years, Dr. Michelle and I have been really on trying to understand this thing called trust. What it is? What builds it? What are the behaviors that break it? And most importantly, how do you rebuild it? And so with our work, not only individually, but also our collaboration with Marsha, we very much appreciate this opportunity to talk about this topic.

Marsha Clark  2:44  
We had a phone call some 22 or so years ago, just with because we were exploring lots of different content around trust, knowing we wanted to include the information and material. And years by far the work that you and Michelle have done is by far some of the best work that I've ever seen are found. And I know that you now have 20 plus years on which to build on that research and the experience, and that you've delivered it the world over. And I love that we're going to be able to introduce your research your models, your framework, your tools, to a whole new audience through our book and through these podcasts.

Dr. Dennis Reina  3:19  
Yes, so I want to make sure that we take some time later on in the episode to talk about the book that you have coming out. But first I want to ask Marsha to explore and dive into what drove you to include Dr. Reina in your programs and your book.

Marsha Clark  3:38  
Yeah, so Wendi, as I said... We did a lot of research. We read a lot of books. We've talked to a lot of people. And you know, there's been a lot at the time there was trust was just beginning to become a topic about what it meant to be a powerful leader and be one that builds trust, extends trust accepts trust, knows what trust is, knows how to build it in a meaningful way, and to sustain it in a meaningful way. And I remembered the conversation that I had with Dennis and Michelle on the phone and it was like it clicked. Everything made sense. Their framework was not just academic, it was practical. And it was something that the lay business person could understand and not just a bunch of statistics and an academia.

Dr. Dennis Reina  4:22  
Right. And, apply into life.

Marsha Clark  4:23  
Absolutely. Make it real. Make it real.

Dr. Dennis Reina  4:26  
Right. Okay, so, Dennis, how did you first get interested in these topics and research and then writing?

Well, you know, it's interesting that you asked that because it really started, gosh, almost 15 years ago. I can't believe I'm saying that. When I was running the climbing shop and teaching climbing in Yosemite National Park, and when you're on Valais and you're 1000 feet up in the air with your partner, you really get from a very visceral, kinesthetic level understanding of what trust is. But I wanted to more fully explore this from an academic, and an understanding. And so I went back to school, but it really started back then. As a matter of fact, I'd like to share with you just a picture or two. Here's me actually literally climbing the walls here, some 50 years ago. And this is a picture of Halfdome. And right over here is a picture of me on that same crack, and this, of course, is a close up. So it's not just something we think about. But it's something that we actually lived way back when. I understood it from a kinesthetic level. But I wanted to more fully understand it from an academic perspective. And so I enrolled in a doctoral program at at fielding graduate university to really understand the elements of trust in practice. And after about seven years of blood, sweat, and tears and hard work and academic research, while working full time, mind you, we really identified what is this thing called trust. And we developed the three dimensions of trust and their 16 behaviors, which we call the Reina trust, and betrayal model the three C's, right after it, yes, and after interviewing over 387 leaders in 67 different organizations. And that's a mouthful in 19 industries across the globe, we realized that it was these three dimensions in these 16 behaviors that really build trust. And that's where it really all started 31 years ago.

Marsha Clark  7:01  
I just have to say, Dennis, when I see you on that climb, you would need to need to teach me about fear training, not just trust training. And this idea of being able to trust ourselves. And I know oftentimes that we that, again, the research shows that we build our capacity to trust others very early in our lives. And I'd love to hear more about the capacity for trusting myself, because it all has to start there. Can you speak a little bit to that?

Dr. Dennis Reina  7:30  
Sure. Because self trust, and our capacity for trust, are interrelated. And how I actually, it's interesting. I developed in fact... You know, this is not a topic that we just study academically, or... We live this. And we practice this each and every day. And for example, I have the six or "Seven S's" that I start out. And it's a ritual - daily ritual with me. It's a daily discipline. And I start out literally, with the first S - Straighten the bed. Shave. Stretch. Silent meditation. I actually in the summertime will Wwim, because we have a pond here on our property. Or I'll walk faster, or as I get my other "S" in... I Strut. And then of course, I Shower. And this is all the seven steps that I do each and every day. And what it does for me is through this daily discipline, it helps me rely on myself. It helps me really to prepare for the day where I'm going. And through this process of thinking about what I'm going to be doing, what I'm getting ready for, whether it be for a meeting, such as this, or a keynote. But it's important prep time to really do this, if you will, this dress rehearsal and really prepare for that very next thing. And all of that actually prepares me for increasing that level of self trust.

Marsha Clark  9:12  
Well, I know that one of your trust behaviors is be consistent. And I love the fact that your "Seven S's" are a part of your consistent and daily ritual. And appreciate the thought about how that grounding or that centeredness establishes us to be in a strong place that as leaders and as just people moving throughout the world every single day that it gives us that solid grounding. Now most of the of our listeners and viewers have probably not also heard about the "Three C's" of your trust model and the Reina Trust Model and I would love for you to share some information about that as well.

Dr. Dennis Reina  9:50  
Sure, absolutely. Marsha, you know, it's interesting. We actually develop these three C's the trust of Character, the trust of Communication, and the trust of Capability. And each of these have a distinct... They're interrelated, but each of these have a distinct function. For example, trust of character. One of the key behaviors and trust the characters, managing expectations. You know, making sure that people know what we expect of them, and what we know that what we can expect from them and what they can expect from us. Also, another one is, of course, you mentioned consistency, but also managing expectations. Really, it's an important one, and allowing people to do the jobs we hired them to do, really helping them understand those expectations. But also, mutually serving intentions, mutually serving intentions means I got your back, you got my back, we're in this together. And those, those are just two or three of those behaviors of trust of character, but I wanted to give you a flavor for that particular dimension.

Dr. Reina, you mentioned self trust earlier in this conversation, and where does that come into this model?

Well, self trust is really that capacity for trust. It's that interrelationship between how we trust ourselves. How we think. How we prepare for the day. I use those seven steps to really get me into the day to focus myself, etc. and... But, from a graphical point of view, it's right there at the heart of the model. It's at the core. And that really helps us really to focus to center and to ground ourselves each and every day. And I use those seven steps for just that.

Marsha Clark  12:00  
And when do you find that... If I can add something as well. I love that it's the center of the framework of your model. Because I think, you know, all the work that we do around leadership starts with self awareness and self, right? Until we can get that pretty squared away and get clear about it get aligned around it, and what it means to us. And I think it's harder. And then this trust of character, Dennis. I'd like to add a couple of thoughts on the managing expectations, because I do so much work around that, both in the trust model, as well as building high performance teams. And I'd love to share with the audience and our listeners. And Dennis, I'd love to get your thoughts about it. But I, I talked about there's three different kinds of expectations so that... They're the kinds that we know we have. We've communicated. We've gotten them aligned. We're on the same page. The second kind is I had them. I haven't communicated them...

Dr. Dennis Reina  12:53  
Yes! It happened in my head!

Marsha Clark  12:56  
As my husband said, I've said many times, and so this idea of being able to get aligned with if I if I haven't communicated them. You can't read my mind, right? It's not just common sense. Because common is not common. Dennis, I know you've worked around the world like I have. And so it's it's not the same everywhere we go. So we've got to make sure we're getting the expectation piece out on the table. And then the third is kind of expectation is that we don't even know we have it until it's not met. Right? And I think that's such an important piece as well. So, Dennis, I'd love to, you know, I've expanded in this area, and we've partnered on that. So tell me a little bit about your thoughts when you think about not just managing them, but knowing I have them communicating and getting alignment on them?

Dr. Dennis Reina  13:45  
Absolutely/ Well, a lot of times where there's breakdowns in, particularly whether it be relationships, because that's what we're talking about, because trust is the foundation of effective relationships. It's people are not even aware that they're not... You know, not living up to one's expectations or not following through on there. And that's a real challenge is because it's really making the implicit, explicit. And that's a key piece about expectation. You know, if it's in our minds, or in our hearts, but we haven't been able to communicate that openly and honestly, and share that. And that's actually where the second dimension of trust comes in the trust of communication. are we sharing the information and, and giving people the information they need to do the jobs that we hired them to do? And so that's a key piece there. And of course, that flows very nicely into trust of capability, because that's about acknowledging the skills and abilities of one another and also involving them and seeking their input. And all three of those dimensions were candid and are very much interrelated and integrated with one another.

So let's talk more about the expectations menu that you added in your book, Marsha.

Marsha Clark  15:13  
Yeah, yeah. One of the things that... and I know we're moving around the model here a little bit. Yeah, that's the interrelated aspect of this. So I hope our listeners and viewers can can follow along with our, you know, thoughts and connections. The expectations menu is something that, as I've taught the model over these 20 plus years, is that I collected information from my clients, both the in-class clients, as well as the coaching clients, and program clients. And so when I collected their information about their expectations... What are my expectations of you? And you can think about those: my expectations of my team, my peers, my boss, my, you know, customers, prospects, stakeholder groups, and so on. I saw many common themes. So what I found is that if we could just start with a menu that I can share with my clients, and program participants, then they can say, "Well, this one fits. This one fits." And, they're not having to start with this blank sheet of paper where it can be so overwhelming. Right? And I agree with you, Dennis, that the breakdowns that occur from a work perspective is often around not having our expectations being met. And so that one's very powerful. And, Dennis, I know, you gave us a couple of examples on the trust of character. And on the trust of communication, can you share a few thoughts with us around that? Because I think there are a couple of ties that I'd like to then go back and write even to the trust of characters. So a couple of thoughts on some of the behaviors around trust of communication.

Dr. Dennis Reina  16:54  
Sure. So one of the other areas that I had mentioned was speaking with good purpose. And what we mean by that is... When you have an issue or concern, when you're having a disagreement, rather than talk with everyone else behind their back, we go directly to the person who can actually do something about it. We don't gossip or bad mouth them to everyone else. But we go directly to them and say, hey, you know, the other day when we were in the meeting, I said, action, and you said why, and I think there was a bit of a, a misunderstanding or a disagreement, we talk things through we work things through. And that's a key piece. So that sharing information being open and honest and transparent in our communication, that's a real key piece of that trust of communication, or that trust of disclosure, if you will.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  17:49  
Right! And you know, I love the sharing information... I grew up in a world back in the 80s, when it was the total quality management processes. I'm aging myself I know, I know. And yet it was "Knowledge is Power" was one of the phrases that was often used. And I say there's two sides of that sharing information to me as I may have knowledge, but sharing it with others is going to build trust. Because it ties right back into that mutually serving intentions that says I want you to have the same information I do, so that we can make the best decision together. And I contrast that to a little bit of the five year old who's like, "I know somethign you don't know!" The opposite of sharing information. And yet I think we need to recognize that and you know, Dennis, the speaking with good purpose. People who know me know I have one-liners for everything. You know this, Wendi, and you're here for me all the time. And one of my favorites about speaking with good purpose is - "Talk TO me, not ABOUT me." So Dennis, to your point about not gossiping, not doing the behind the back kind of talk and just being ugly about all of that. So, you know, we all have our language and our way of saying things. But Dennis, I just want to reinforce those points that you made about the trust of communication. And I know another is about giving and receiving constructive feedback. And it's much easier to give and receive constructive feedback if we set our expectations. So when I think about how all this fits together and is so interwoven,

And the trust has to be there also!

Marsha Clark  19:24  
And that's a part of what's there. Right? It's a part of building it.

Dr. Dennis Reina  19:27  
Yes, yes. No setting. Exactly. Exactly. And telling the truth too. Which you know, not spinning the truth, or providing a comfortable variation of the truth, but actually the truth. And sometimes, you know, you need to tell the truth and it takes some courage but also take some compassion to cutting each other some slack Hey, we're all in this together, particularly during these crazy times. You know, the pandemic and people working remotely and geographically dispersed, etc, etc. These are challenging times like no other.

Right? So, Marsha, I know in your book you caution readers to watch out for what you call "disclosure behaviors." And I think one of them is admitting mistakes. So why I'd love to hear from both of you what advice there is about disclosure admitting mistakes?

Marsha Clark  20:22  
Yeah, I think the key part here... The admitting mistakes. You know, there's a work around. It's powerful to be vulnerable, which is a part of admitting mistakes. It's a part of being human. Right? Which is an important part. And I also think that the caution of the watch out for me is what I've seen happen with women in the focused work that I've done around them. And Dennis, I'd love to, for you to share your thoughts with us on that as well. It's about we say "I'm sorry" all the time. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Dr. Dennis Reina  20:52  
I said it five times before I sat in this chair.

Marsha Clark  20:54  

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  20:55  
In this room.

Marsha Clark  20:56  
Yes! It's so innate in us. I mean, I've watched my granddaughters grow up at three and four years old. They're already apologizing for things that they have absolutely nothing to do with. So in reality, we're saying "I'm sorry this is happening." And yet, when we say it all the time, it sounds like somehow we're responsible for whatever it is that has happened that's not so good. And so I think the "I'm sorry" phrase for women can often get us in trouble, if you will. And yet, if we have done something, and we're truly sorry about it, that's when we need to admit the mistakes. And then own it. Take accountability for it and move on. So Dennis, I don't know what you've seen. Because I know you've worked, again, around the world in sharing this information with with everyone... Men and women.

Dr. Dennis Reina  21:39  
Well, absolutely, you know, it's, it's, there's no question. And I totally agree with you, Marsha, that admitting mistakes is essential to trust building and to acknowledge when we haven't. And let's face it. We all make mistakes. And I've learned some pretty hard lessons with mistakes, you know, over the years. But I also think it's very self-effacing and self-denigrating for anyone, but particularly for women, to admit mistakes to something they had nothing to do with. Nothing that you know, and I had a leader one time share with me, he said, "You know... There's two things when I admit my mistakes:  with my team or with my people. And he said, "Number one... " He said, "When I admit my mistakes, it shows that I'm human. That I'm vulnerable." "And two," he says, "When I admit my mistakes, it gives them permission to admit theirs." It gives them permission to go beyond and say, "Hey, you know what? I do that or not... " And that I think is really opens the door to... Yes, we should admit our mistakes when we we clearly have something to admit about. But also, on the other hand, when it's not our fault, we should acknowledge it, but let it go. Let it go.

Marsha Clark  23:11  
Yeah, and one of my.... Ugh, it kind of sends shivers up my spine kind of phrases is "throwing others under the bus." We're unwilling to admit our mistakes, but we're willing to throw everybody else into the fray as if it is their fault. Another pet peeve of mine. Right? And not a trust building behavior. So thank you for that, Dennis.

Dr. Dennis Reina  23:33  
Well, speaking of throwing people under the bus, I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about betrayal, and then also healing. And I know that you and I are going to have some future episodes about those topics where we go deeper. But for this and while we have Dr. Reina here, I'd love to hear both of your thoughts on those two topics as well. And models around them.

Marsha Clark  23:54  
Right. So Dennis, I mean, the frameworks that you shared with us early on is part of why another reason I chose their work because it's such a comprehensive look at that. So Dennis, I'd love for you to talk about the betrayal continuum and the seven steps for healing.

Dr. Dennis Reina  24:10  
Sure, absolutely. Well, you know, I just happen to have here my handy dandy little hand here -- The Betrayal Continuum. Let's see here. Whoops, there we go. What it is, is a continuum from major, or I should say minor to major, unintentional to unintentional. And so what that actually means is, while we think of the word betrayal is the big, bad, nasty, dark omnious things that people do and so forth. The truth of the matter is that 90% of the ways 90 to 95% of the ways that trust gets broken aren't the big things. But the minor unintentional and the unintentional are the ones are often People are not even aware that they're breaking trust, but yet the damage is done. And it needs to be acknowledged and it needs to be, you know, corrected. So the minor, unintentional 95% of those are the ways that trust is often broken. And there people are unaware, whereas the major intentional and unintentional. You know, for example, a major intentional betrayal might be sabotaging, you know, the data systems. Going in and intentionally, purposefully breaking things down at the cost of someone else. But those minor unintentional, on the other side of the spectrum, those are the things that really happen each and every day, and happen most frequentl and people are not even aware of them.

Marsha Clark  25:57  
Yeah, Dennis. The way... Some of the ways that I talk about this is, again, my phrase for remembering is "Beware Betrayl Build-Up." Right? So it's that accumulation of this little thing, and this little thing, and this little thing. But before we know it, it's gone from minor, unintentional to major, without the other person, even possibly knowing it, which is why we want to give constructive feedback earlier in the process, not later in the process to avoid some of that. And, and the other thing I think about there is, it ties back to giving that feedback, because otherwise, I'm playing into it. And that's why I want to, you know, make sure that it gets handled, and I you'll hear me use this phrase, I'm sure many times in our podcast, and that's, a dot two dots is a line, three dots is a trend. So yes, when something starts happening, second time, third time, and so on, it's now a trend line. And we definitely need to make sure that we're addressing that through the constructive feedback process.

Dr. Dennis Reina  26:59  
Exactly. And you include the writers betrayal continuum model as an activity in the book. And so let's talk about whether betrayal is an isolated incident or whether you're starting to notice that trend, as you just said.

Marsha Clark  27:15  
So I think Dennis spoke to it earlier in a really relevant and timely way. When you think of the betrayals that happened for us individually, and then there's some collective betrayals. Whether I've had people who can feel betrayed by their boss, by their company, certainly by personal friends and loved ones that was hurt even deeper, and can often go into that. And we'll speak more about that as we dive into the betrayal continuum and the whole topic in another podcast. And yet, I think that when we think about all the things that are coming at us, if we don't understand and can't give it language, and a cognitive framework is often the way I refer to our tools and roadmaps and so on, I've got to be able to file it somewhere in my mind in my head. And so the betrayal continuum, I may think of it as something huge. And yet, if I really then begin to think of it as major matter intentional or unintentional, then I've got a way of giving it some perspective, I guess. And Dennis, I don't know, do you agree that the perspective is the right word on that? Because I that's one of the things I love about the betrayal continuum...

Dr. Dennis Reina  28:32  
Well, I think you're absolutely right, Marsha. I think it really is... It's a framework. And it gives people a framework to really put the you know, when we get hit with a betrayal, particularly a large one, you know, the minor unintentional, we may not be aware of, as mentioned before, but when we get hit with, we're often thrown off our legal librium were thrown off our you know, we lose our grounding often. And we are, are thrown in for a loop so to speak, you know, as those different axioms go. And, and so, what the betrayal continuum does is really put things into that perspective, put things into that framework, so that we can make sense out of it, so we can then do something about it.

Marsha Clark  29:25  
Well, and one of the other things I've learned in doing the work with women, you know, how can I say whether you intentionally betrayed me or unintentionally but right, we really can't, right? And yet we've made up a story. With you big, bad person, you're out to get me or you're, you know, you're the enemy, so to speak. And, and I have found that if I just own that part of the story that I've made up that I can now begin to understand it with a greater degree of clarity, which then helps appointment to them. What am I going to do with that information? Right?

Dr. Dennis Reina  30:04  
So now let's talk about the other model, which is healing. So Dr. Reina, let's... Walk us through through that, and what does healing look like when you've been betrayed?

Sure. So, what we've developed, obviously, you know, you start with what trust is and how it gets betrayed, well, then the natural flow of that is what how do you rebuild trust when it gets broken? Right? And so we came up with the seven steps for healing model, which is this model right here. And I often look at it in three segments. Okay. The first segments right through here are the full acknowledgment. Alright, the full acknowledgement is observing, acknowledge what has happened, what's going on, you know, we need to fully give voice to that which is going on, and to allow feelings to surface, okay? Often people get stuck in those two steps, oh, they did this to me, and oh, wow, I feel miserable, etc. And they often stay in that. And that's where the gossip and the backbiting and so forth. But with support, which is at the third part of that first full acknowledgement, we're able to then shift to the next section, which is reframing the experience, what was the bigger picture? What was going on for these, this individual or individuals that caused them to do what they did? And what choices and options do they now have, which is about really beginning to take responsibility, which is the second part, that reframe the experience and take responsibility. And then that leads to from there, once you've got the first and that's the first five steps, you're well on your way. But to really, the next segment would be, which is the third segment. Step number six is, forgive yourself and others. And that's so often so hard to do, particularly what we find and and, you know, for women, for example, to forgive ourselves, and to forgive others, it might even be easy to forgive others, but to forgive ourselves can be challenging. And to let go and move on and letting go isn't about condoning what has happened. But it's about accepting what has happened without blame is accepting what has happened with that intention to move on. And so those seven steps really provide a framework for people to move from hurt and disappointment and frustration, to really start to make sense out of what's going on, to begin to take responsibility to forgive, let go, and move on.

Marsha Clark  33:14  
Yeah. Dennis, I want to speak to this because when when trust has been broken, the one of the bigger questions is, "Well, do I want to rebuild trust with that person again or not?" Right? And so I everybody moves directly to rebuilding the trust before they move through the healing process. So one of the things that we really stress in our programs and in the book, and Dennis I, you know, I know you do this as well, is I've got to do my own work before I can even think about rebuilding trust with you. So this idea of me working through these really strong seven steps. And knowing that I can get to step three, and have start over again, or No, I can get step five. And I got to start over again, because that's the spiral, you know, visual of it. And one of my favorite quotes here, and I may not get it exactly right, but it's something around revenge revenge. Does it make you better? It makes you bitter? Yes. And you know, the idea of that is I'm carrying all this around with me because you've done me wrong 10 years ago kind of thing, when the other person may not even know that it's been an affront to me or a betrayal to me. And so this is the gift you give yourself is to me is the seven steps for healing. And I do agree with you to Dennis that women we carry it around and it is harder to forgive ourselves because we we feel guilty about everything anyway, so why not feel guilty about this? So there is that another thing too, and yet I also want to tell you the first time I taught this in a co ed class, there was a gentleman in there and he was just really sort of practical, none of this soft, touchy feely stuff, you know, the heart, the soft stuffs, the hearts Step. But he said, Look, somebody, you know, does me wrong, I acknowledge it, and then I move on, I may need to do steps two through five, because sometimes that's where the hard work really has happened. Exactly. Women were going through each of those steps and trying to figure it out. And I think that reframing... What my default reframe is "What am I supposed to learn from this so it doesn't keep happening to me?" So I mean, Dennis, any other thoughts that you have around that?

Dr. Dennis Reina  35:28  
Sure. No, absolutely. I want to underscore, first of all, step number three, the support is absolutely critical to get beyond that, acknowledging and being stuck in one's feelings, you know, that stuckness, if you will, and being able to, you know, begin to shift, you know, what are the choices? What are the options? What are the opportunities do I now have, at my, at my doorstep, if you will, and that often comes with an external, whether it be an external partner, whether it be a coach or a guide, sometimes people find it through prayer and, and through self reflection, support comes in many different shapes and forms where it could be externally or internally. And so but it's absolutely critical for us to be able to move on, and to be able to really take responsibility to let go. And and you're absolutely right, you know, women tend to be very, I think women are much more emotionally intelligent, quite frankly, generally speaking than men. And, you know and I've got 71 years of the male experience to prove it. But I think that, you know, because they, they tend to really embrace it, but they also tend to fret and ruminate, etc, etc. Whereas you're absolutely right. Men say, "Yeah, okay, I get the three dimensions. You know, that on an intellectual level. Yeah, that makes sense to me." But it's the women who really understand the nuances. It's the women who really understand the particulars underneath the behaviors and get the model from a very emotionally, provactive viewpoint.

Marsha Clark  37:28  
Yeah, you know, I think about, I've had many women talk about how hard it is to forgive ourselves, because we do take it to heart and we hold on tight. And I've had many women say, "Well, I've let go, and I've moved on." And then I ask them. I say, "So, when that person's name shows up on your caller ID, do you answer the phone?"  "Oh no!"

Or, you see them across the cafeteria and you don't make eye contact because you really don't want to re-engage. And, to forgive is not to forget. And all of those things that go along with that. And, Dennis, I agree, there's many ways to get the support, because I've had people tell me, I need to go on a run, right? Or I need to go do hot yoga, you know, to get it all out. And that's a part of the support. And then, Dennis, you'll be proud of me on this. In the back of the book, we actually have a list of feeling words, because it's hard sometimes to name those feelings. And we're trying to give that as another tool as a way to be able to name it. Because when I can name it, it kind of takes some of the sting or the power away from it because it's in me now.

Dr. Dennis Reina  38:36  
Right. Right! So Dr. Reina, I know that you're working on a new book right now with some awesome new tools and resources and materials. Tell us about that.

Sure, thank you so much! You know, Dr. Michelle and I are working on a new book called, or the working title is, "Being a Trustworthy Leader." Because in this day and age, you know, with, as I mentioned, with the pandemic, and people working remotely and geographically, it's not easy to be an inclusive, trustworthy leader. Not in this day and age. And so we've developed a number of tools that will both be in the book, but also actually, I have one right here... This deck of cards: The reign of trust and betrayal, the trust pack. And this really helps people really practice the tools that that we talked about in our other framework and go into greater depth, because we also go into greater depth around our capacity for trust. And as you noticed, whether it's this model, but at the heart of every single model that we have is our capacity for trust. And our capacity for trust is our willingness and readiness to trust ourselves, which influences and impacts our willingness and our readiness to trust others. And that's at the heart. And so we're really exploring this at a deeper level going deeper and broader to this whole notion of self trust. What does it take to be trustworthy? What does it take to be a trustworthy leader, particularly during this current pandemic, or post-pandemic times?

Marsha Clark  40:21  
Well, and Dennis, what I love about this card deck as set of tools is it allows us to say, here's one very specific thing I want to work on. And then I can go begin to build the muscle around that if you will, so that it becomes my new pattern or habit or default. And, you know, one of the the trust of character items is be consistent, we talked, you know, we've talked about that. And this idea of being consistent, what I tell my clients is that even if we're a bad leader, you know, and we all know we have the world, if I can predict the consistency of you showing up in a way that to me is not effective or not conducive to building trust. So then I go start on building a new trust model, trust actually goes down because they can't predict my behavior anymore, right. And they people tend to have to knee need to see something at least eight times before they see it as the new normal. And so what I love about these cards, it's it's gonna allow me to build the consistency of this new performance around building these trust behaviors that I think will be immensely useful.

Dr. Dennis Reina  41:30  
No, you're absolutely right. Because each of the cards, you know, they're color coded. But like, for example, being consistent. On the backside of the card, what we have here on the backside of the card is our trust building behavior. And then if you flip the card, the actions that they can take to build trust in that particular behavior is what are those actions that actually contribute to breaking or eroding trust. And again, we want to stay away from them. But it's, again, as you said, it's important to first and foremost, acknowledge what is happening and what they are because we have to name them in order to do something about them.

Marsha Clark  42:15  
It's a part of why I love how your models and frameworks weave together. Because what I found when I ask people, What does trust mean to you? It's much easier for them to say, here's what it doesn't look like. Somebody is not there. Yeah, they broken my trust. And so I love that you brought both sides of that, because we can often speak about it on the negative side before we can speak about it on the positive side.

Dr. Dennis Reina  42:40  
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Well, I wasn't there 20 years ago when the Power Of Self program was starting in your living room. And I'm sure that Dr. Reina was pulled into the conversation and Dr. Michelle, very soon, very quickly after this whole thing started. But I just want to thank you, Dr. Reyna, for being here with us today and sharing all these insights around trust. And what it means to build trust. What it means to to work on rebuilding trust, if that happens, and all of the things that are going into this book and into this program.

Marsha Clark  43:16  
Well, Dennis, if I may... You know, one of the things that also appeals to me about the trust model, the Reina Trust Model, is that by breaking trust down into I'll call it bite sized chunks, right? Whether it be trust of character, trust of communication, trust of capability, and then those bulleted behaviors below each one of those. If we decided that we didn't want to stay in relationship because you broke my trust on any one of those 16 behavioral items. I wouldn't trust anybody in the world....

Dr. Dennis Reina  43:51  
That's right. You wouldn't even get out the door.

Marsha Clark  43:53  
I mean... I'd be writing off everybody living on an island somewhere, which is what would drive me up a wall. And so, you know, Dennis, and please share with Michelle, that this idea of being able to break it down in a more granular form allows me to see it, name it, address it to get that feedback that says this is a behavior that is not working for me as it relates to our meaningful relationship based on trust. And so I don't just paint you with some broad brush stroke, right? "I don't trust Wendi." It's more of "I don't trust Wendi to... " you know, set boundaries, or manage expectations or whatever that might be. Now, let's go work on that. But rather than saying I don't trust women.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  44:38  
And there's so much also power to be had in naming it because so many times for women it's... It's just a feeling. It's a something something's not right or whatever. But having the cards and the tools in order to be able to name it, then as you said, allows you to build upon it.

Marsha Clark  45:00  
Well, I encourage everyone to go out. You know, the first book - "Trust and Betrayal in the Workplace, Third Edition" - I think you're on which says volumes about the goodness and value of your work. And I encourage people who want to study more Dennis to get your... You've got that book. You've got other books that are coming out. You've got your card deck tools. And even assessments that organizations can use to determine a baseline of where the trust is today and where you might want it to go. So I can't thank you enough for the wonderful things that you've brought, not just to the programs that I've done in the work that I've done, but what that you've brought to the world into organizations everywhere. So Dennis, just thank you so much for being with us today for sharing your experience, your knowledge, your wisdom, and your tools for the benefit of all of our listeners and viewers. And so thank you!

Dr. Dennis Reina  45:54  
Well, and thank you, and thank you both! It's been a pleasure. And I look forward to many more adventures with you. Of course, in our collaboration, which I hold very deeply in my heart. And, you know, I just want to say one thing, what you're talking about those little bite-sized pieces of trust building information. We've actually coined the term "Trust Bits." And we are developing a digital platform that'll incorporate all of those into a weekly Trust Bit dissemination tool, but more on that for future! It's such a pleasure. Thank you so much. God bless. And God be willing.

Marsha Clark  46:44  
Thank you. Thank you.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  46:45  
Well, thank you all for listening in and watching us today here on Your Authentic Path To Powerful Leadership with Marsha Clark! Please download and subscribe to this podcast. Encourage your women friends to download and subscribe. Visit for links and sources to all of the tools and the research that we mentioned today. You can check out Marsha's book. We can join you on social media or email newsletter. There's just all the places that we're going to be there on

Marsha Clark  47:21  
Well, let me add my thank you for joining us today. And again, another big thanks to Dr. Dennis Reina. And we want, as you know, we want to hear from you! So please, email me. Go onto the website. Leave your comments, your thoughts, your questions there. We really want to continue to build a relationship with you based on you being able to trust us. And we trust we try very hard to bring you value and we hope that's been true for you today. And it is important for us to understand ourselves as women and equally important especially in the spirit of relationships. As you know, I close every podcast with "Here's to women supporting women!"

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