Podcast Transcript

What Matters Most

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:10  
Welcome to "Your Authentic Path to Powerful Leadership" with Marsha Clark. Join us on this journey where we're uncovering what it takes to be a powerful woman leader. Well, Marsha, welcome back.

Marsha Clark  0:24  
Thank you very much, Wendi.

Absolutely! And I'm curious, did you do anything special to celebrate yourself last week?

Well, I know our last podcast was about "Celebrating You". So how did I celebrate me? So you know what was fun, I had a conversation with a CEO, new potential client, and it was talking about how to provide some support, online type of support, text type app support for salespeople, and how to provide them with some leadership tips in the moment, sort of. He was describing it as it's going to be kind of like a tick tock, you know, you click on something and all of a sudden, you get this blurb of 'do this now', so sort of in the moment, spot laser coaching, all that sort of stuff. Well, he had this view of how things should be. And this may sound weird as part of our celebration, but I said, you know, I get that. And that could work. Let me tell you what I'm thinking. And it was totally different. And the celebration was speaking my truth, you know, even to the face of a prospect, a CEO, a male. And I felt really good that, you know, at this point in my life, in my career, that I felt confident enough, I was courageous enough, I felt living to my values, of course, which is one of the things we're going to talk about today. All of that was part of the celebration. When I got done I thought, I liked that conversation. We had differing point of views. We were both respectful and letting the other speak their truth, tell their story, give their perspective. And to me, that's a celebration.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  2:08  
That is a celebration. Wow.

Marsha Clark  2:10  
That was fine, that was me last week.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  2:12  
So hello, senators, congressmen, you know, everyone running for political office, you can disagree with people and still have a respectful conversation. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. So okay, so this week, we're picking up on a topic from one of our first episodes and doing a much deeper dive. So today, our episode title is "What Matters Most".

Marsha Clark  2:35  
Yeah and I love the title, too. And, you know, we're focusing on what matters most in terms of how our day to day choices are driven by our values, we're back to those values, and how we can make better, more informed choices when we're aware of, clear about, and aligned with our values.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  2:53  
Yeah, awesome. So when we first talked about this, I think it was episodes one, two, and maybe even three, the word "values" came up over and over again. Values, living aligned with your values, those concepts are very important in those early episodes.

Marsha Clark  3:11  
Well, you're right, and I rely on values a lot, both in how I make my own decisions and how I coach others. I think about, you know, Wendi, in terms of all the folks that I've worked with over the years who are now coming back to me and asking for coaching support, and they're in C Suite jobs. Maybe they went through my program 10 years ago, 15 years ago, and now they're in these C Suite jobs and they're alone. Right? And they don't have best practices or best in class or competitive info or insights to figure out how to navigate today's world because it's new and different. Yeah. And I will tell you this, this "values" conversation is one I have often because in absence of everything else, of data, of evidence, of experience, of prospective, what do we do? What do we do? Go back and rely on those values. So it is so important that we want to come back to this and really think about it in terms of "what matters most".

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:08  
Yeah, exactly. Well, values definitely matter to you because I have a little geeky confession to make. I'm pretty sure that the word "values" shows up in your book, "Embracing Your Power" about 46 times. So 46 to 50 times we've got it in there.

Marsha Clark  4:25  
It's as if you did a count.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:26  
Yeah, exactly. I might have run a word search on my version. But values I think, especially as we're coming out of the time of pandemic when everybody really had to go 'oh my goodness' and take a look at themselves and what their work and their environment was like, values is definitely something that we've all been coming back to.

Marsha Clark  4:51  
Yeah. I'm fascinated by the fact that you did a word count because I didn't do that. But that's another 46 different references now, 50 whatever it is, and I just want to say again, they really do drive my choices. And I think I agree with you. And these last few years, we've had to dig, dig deep. And it's going to be our values that help us make much better choices. And I want to be really, and I want to encourage our listeners to be really deliberate, being clear about what they are, and then being deliberate about how they use them.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  5:20  
Exactly. So how do you want to frame our conversation about values today because this could go many different ways?

Marsha Clark  5:27  
Yeah, so I want to focus on a couple of things. Three things. First, we're going to explore the word 'values' itself, because there's actually some clarity in that exploration alone. And then I want to introduce our listeners to the tools that we have in the book on values that we call Values Clarification, and talk through that exercise that we encourage you to do. And then finally, we're going to wrap up talking about the application of what you learn when you do an exercise like that. And many of our listeners may have heard me talking about the What, the So What, and the Now What. This is the so what and now what as a result of really getting clear about what our values are.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  6:06  
Okay, so you offer a definition of sorts on what values are in the book. Let's start there as kind of a level set for everyone listening.

Marsha Clark  6:16  
So what I say is that values are a set of principles or ideals that drive and guide a person's behavior. They reflect your judgment about what's important in your life. And understanding what your values are helps you to live a  more authentic, right, that's part of the title of my book, right a more authentic, happy and purposeful life. And I think about them as giving us a touch point for making decisions and setting priorities. That's, I got to go check on that I got to touch it, make sure I'm in alignment with it.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  6:54  
This is interesting to me, because you usually pull definitions from the dictionary or some, you know, authoritative source. But you don't do that here. Where did this definition of values come from?

Marsha Clark  7:06  
Yeah I will just tell you, I often describe things as my adaptive version. You know, I'll take what someone else says, but that I want to put it in my own words, based on what I'm thinking about it. And so that's the adaptive part. And and so it's nothing more complicated than that. And, you know, there's there are descriptions that I've discovered along the way that I like, as well. And there's one from Dr. Russ Harris on his site, he has a website, actmindfully.com.au, which means Australia, and it rings true for me, too. And let me share that with our leaders: "Values are your heart's deepest desires for how you want to behave as a human being." I love heart's deepest desires, that phrase itself. "Values are not about what you want to get or achieve. They are about how you want to behave or act on an ongoing basis, how you want to treat yourself, others and the world around you." And I love it because it's focused on being, not doing. Being first, which then drives our doing.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  8:16  
Right. So you know, I'm now realizing how often we use the word value to represent something else, like the tangible price of something or the worth of something like the blue book value of a car, or the value of a certain stock. But these definitions are so much more philosophical and rooted in who we are as people, not things.

Marsha Clark  8:40  
Well, that's right, you're so you're onto something there. And in some cases, the word value has, I would even describe it as being hijacked into something that's purely material. And in my opinion, in some ways that devalues if I can use the word itself, the word itself, right? So you confessed about geeking out and counting how many times I use the word "values" in my book, but now it's my turn to confess my geekiness.  I fell down a rabbit hole looking at the origins of the word "value". And it turns out to be a really fascinating discovery.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  9:14  
Yeah, most rabbit holes are fascinating. Tell us what you have.

Marsha Clark  9:16  
So some are for sure. So so stick with me here. And I promise I think it's relevant and I hope our listeners do too. So this comes from a website called etymonline.com Yeah, that's, oh, it's etymology, which is word origins.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  9:41  
Yeah, it's crammed together. So for listeners, it's etymonline.com. All right, where you can look up there. You can look up word origin.

Marsha Clark  9:53  
All right. All right. So according to that site, the earliest existence of the root of the word value was the Latin word I'll say valere, which meant, and I love this, be strong, be well, be worth.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  9:53  
Ooh. I do too.

Marsha Clark  9:55  
I wish I had the eloquence of the words. My words are so practical. But be strong, be well, be worth. I love that. So it gets even more interesting when you think of the idea that our values guide us, that they inform us, that they drive our behavior, the being that drives the doing. And here's some examples of the origins of the word "value" in other languages. So Old Church Slavonic, they had the word "vlasti", and that meant to rule over. And then Lithuanian was "valdyti" and I hope I'm pronouncing these right. Valdyti meant to have power. Think about the name of my book, "Embracing Your Power". And I mean I just start getting goosebumps as I read these to consider how our values have power over or rule our lives.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  9:55  
So this "vlasti" and "valdyti", both of those words are bringing to mind "walkures", yeah, which are women warriors. Right! Oh, my God. Love that. Okay. Yeah.

Marsha Clark  11:29  
See, this rabbit hole is fascinating. So a couple more. Old Irish, and this was the word "flaith" meant dominion. And the Welsh "gallu", meant to be able. So all of these descriptions of power, dominion, to be able, all are related to the word value.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  11:54  
Yeah I love how the origins of the word really do relate back to the intention of how values rule our lives and how they really do matter most. Yeah. So now I have more questions than ever before. So since we're chasing down rabbits still, I know there's some interesting clarifications about the difference between values, like some are aspirational, some are more realistic, meaning based on how I really behave. So does all of that work when I'm trying to get clear on my values?

Marsha Clark  12:29  
Yeah, I think that's a really good, you know, early question, as we travel or unpack all of this. And so, let me say first say, so there's no doubt in anyone's mind out there listening, I believe in and I base my coaching on the premise that I'm not here to judge which values you prioritize or hold dear or anyone. It's not my place, or, or in my humble opinion, anyone else's place to tell you what your values are, and whether they're right or wrong. What I do as especially as a coach is I want to ask the guiding questions. Sometimes they're challenging questions, to get my clients to be as honest with themselves as they can about whether the values they claim to be important, are truly guiding their lives. Have they truly given power or dominion over to the values they claim? Because the reality is, and this is one of those favorite, you know, sort of cross stitch pillow sayings I love that came from one of my dear colleagues, Tracy Brown, "You can't talk your way out of something you've behaved yourself into." And so someone argued that even calling something an aspirational value means by default, it's not actually a value, at least not yet.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  13:47  
Yeah. And I think that's where we get really, especially as women, we start to feel very, feel anxiety, like I'm trying to work up to show up as one way, but I really don't believe in those things, or I don't believe that way. And so I cannot, I can only keep acting for so long.

Marsha Clark  14:08  
So I'm reminded of a quote. It's by Amy Cuddy. We've all heard the phrase, fake it till you make it. She says, "fake it until you become it". And I like that so much better. Because fake it till you make it as like, I'm just trying to get what I want right now in this moment, and I'm gonna manipulate the situation, I'm going to pretend to be something that I'm not. But faking it until we become it is where I'm practicing really being. Right. So I that's where I kind of make that difference. It's a nuance, it's a distinction, and I think it's an important one, right? So you know, let me give you another example where, you know, this may be easier for our listeners to to relate to. So let's say that I claim one of my top values is my health, being healthy. Every time I do a values inventory checklist exercise, I place physical health in my top five. And so let's also say that I do absolutely nothing that supports that value. I eat food that's nutritionally unhealthy, I never exercise, I sit at my desk for 10 plus hours a day, you know, banging away at my keyboard and only move to get up and go the bathroom, grab another soda from the fridge or whatever. And I stay up all night binging on my favorite shows, and only get about five hours of sleep. And, you know, you do this every day, five, six days a week, week after week, month after month. But every time someone asked you about your values, you claim physical health as a priority. Now, as your coach, it's not my job to make judgments about those behaviors, I simply am going to ask the clarifying questions that really help you check in on whether those behaviors align with your definition of that value. Claiming that being healthy is a value but not actually behaving your way into that claim pretty much means it's not an actual value, right? It's like, I often describe these things as idealized values, aren't we all supposed to feel like you know, that health should be a value. So it's not even an actual aspiration when you cite it, but you do nothing to support it. Yep. It's, it's again, one of those I'm not acting my way into it, right, you know, fake it till you become it. So aspiring to be healthy and placing your health as a priority as the value, giving it actual power over your behaviors. Right. Power over your behaviors is I'm going to eat healthy food. I'm going to get enough sleep. I'm going to you know, get up an hour. Yeah. And that's how we know something is a real value.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  16:45  
Yeah. Wanting to value health or even valuing health from maybe an aspirational Instagram perspective isn't actually the same thing as letting the power of that value drive your behaviors and your choices.

Marsha Clark  17:00  
Exactly. And I even laugh and say nor is just wearing exercise clothes valuing.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  17:06  
Oh, my God, that's a whole other podcast. Right! Yeah, I have my Lululemon pants on so that means...

Marsha Clark  17:13  
That's right. That's right. So one of the researchers or authors that I've read said it this way: "Values aren't selected, they're discovered." And I like that. We don't choose our values, our values reveal themselves to us. Now think about that. I love that. So I 100% believe that to be true and see it really every day in the work that I do, and even as I live my own life.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  17:37  
So does that mean that we can't or we don't really have aspirational values?

Marsha Clark  17:42  
Well, so by definition, values aren't aspirations. They're two different things, right? So they're not projections into the future. They're reflections of our lived experiences. And this is to me where the real accountability comes in. They're snapshots of our day to day choices.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  18:01  
Mm. Okay, so like real Instagram back in the beginning, when it didn't have filters.

Marsha Clark  18:06  
Well, so say more about that.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  18:07  
Yeah. So you can use Instagram, obviously, to take realistic photos of your life on a day to day basis and leave off all the filters. And it shows the photograph that you took. Now I'm going to kind of argue with that a little bit because the phone, now camera, is now just completely unbelievable of what you can do to manipulate with it. But if you just take a shot and don't manipulate the photo at all those filterless images are who you are, what you're doing, where you are, you know your surroundings, at your very core.

Marsha Clark  18:43  
Well, it's the real, I describe it as the real you right? I mean, it's not the prettied up me, it's the... you remember when they started doing concerts and it was the unplugged? Yeah. So it was not all this, you know, contrived and showmanship. It was just having a conversation with the audience. Yeah. So I like that.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  19:01  
Yeah. So the exercise you have in the book, those values clarification exercises are a way if we're willing to, if we're willing to really be honest with ourselves, remove those filters.

Marsha Clark  19:16  
That's exactly right. Removing the filters and not trying to make it better than what it truly is, is what this is about.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  19:25  
Yeah. So for listeners who have the book, and if you don't, you need to run and get it right now, these lists are on page 84 and 85 in the book.

Marsha Clark  19:34  
Good, and thank you for that. And as I explained in the book, these are not exhaustive lists. These are things that we've built over the last, you know, 20 years as we've been teaching and delivering on this exercise. So listeners, please feel free to add what's important to you if you don't see it on the list. Absolutely, perfectly fine. And you know, the another thing you can do is an internet search because there's a lot of online versions of values lists for people to, you know, expand their thinking or deepen their thinking. And, you know, some people use lists with as many as 200 values on them. I mean, I think that's an awful lot. So I'm not personally a fan of the mega list, because, you know, in reality, in the end, not everything is going to be a value. And that's a real hard, hard part for us sometimes. Oh, I want that. Oh, yeah, I want that. Oh, yeah, I want that. But, you know, values are the things we don't want to violate and the things that we're not going to compromise on. So if you're really honest with yourself, you're not going to have 30 non negotiable values, at least I've never met anyone with that many. And most of the the exercises, the values clarification exercises, whether it be on the internet, and even as I talk about them, they go through a sorting process until you  eliminate, which one is more important to you? Which one's more important to you? And you get down to a three to five, and in my mind, it's a five to seven, workable, more realistic, are these the things that you truly do not want to violate and compromise?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  21:03  
Exactly. I don't think I can even list 200 values. That feels very overwhelming and intimidating to me. And it probably does to our listeners, like so you're, you're baked in a squat before you even get started.

Marsha Clark  21:16  
Well, it's exactly right. I mean, this is a really silly analogy. But it's like when people go down the store aisle and see how many kinds of cereal they have on the aisle. And what am I really supposed to choose and pick from? I'd rather have lesser, but make them more meaningful.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  21:34  
Exactly, exactly.

Marsha Clark  21:36  
So, you know, once you've worked through the values checklist, and you know, it can be the one in the book, or it can be someone else's, what we want you to do is one last sort. And this is to get unequivocally clear that these values, these guidelines that I'm giving power to, giving dominion to over my behaviors, over my resources, over my choices, this is where I ask one final sorting question. And this is really important. And I have to look myself in the mirror and say, without these values, I'm not me. This is the authentic part.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  22:17  
I love that metric. You mentioned when we started this episode that you wanted to talk about the So What, Now What and getting clear on your way of getting clear on your values. So let's start to wrap up with your thoughts on that.

Marsha Clark  22:35  
Yeah, I use those questions as I describe it as my discernment process. What happened? Or what did I learn? Then I ask So What and Now What?  So what difference will it make if I'm living this value? So what do I need to do differently, if anything as a result of seeing how I am or might not be living my value to its fullest? So it's an opportunity for me to do some critical thinking about what just happened here. And in the case of doing a values clarification exercise, which is the What, then I need to explore that So What.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  23:13  
So can you give us an example of a So What question around the values clarification exercise?

Marsha Clark  23:15  
Sure, sure. So we'll start with a What and then we'll build so the What question could be now that I've done a values clarification, I realized that I have a disconnect between my espoused or you know, aspirational values, and my day to day choices and behaviors. So we can go back to our original example. So I claim to value being healthy, but I live 100% counter to that. So it's not really a true core value. So my So What at this point is the you know, pivotal fork in the road. So which will it be? Truly committing to valuing my health and making changes in my lifestyle, my habits, my sleep, everything, or acknowledge that being healthy is not really an actual value of mine? And can I let go of that pretense? I mean, that's a big, you know, fork to claim it and live it or to say, you know, I gotta let it go, because it's really not a value. So my So What inquiry needs to include some critical thinking and deliberation of the, you know, sort of the if X then Y and the ripple effect based on my options as I see them.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  24:33  
Ah. that makes such good sense. So, then the next step, what's an example of a Now What question for this scenario?

Marsha Clark  24:42  
So, in this case, my Now What could be a few things. So one now what might mean I need to do some research on the health implications of my choices, or and you know, not just going and googling or reading WebMD or whatever, but even looking at my genealogy in the health of my family, because we know so many things are genetic. And if I've decided to shift and truly start behaving as if health really is a value, I want to check out which fitness activities do I enjoy and what's close by my house for convenience sake. I may look for an accountability buddy or a support system. I might, you know, even explore meal programs. So the now whats are the tangible steps for moving in the right direction towards actually living out this value.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  25:31  
Yeah, you know, I've found this episode to be so valuable. Uh, that was a horrible part. Okay, so anyway, moving on. About this episode, it's that it's a huge reminder that values aren't just these platitudes or beliefs, at least not if they are truly our values.

Marsha Clark  25:50  
You're absolutely right, Wendi. And, you know, when I say real values are non negotiables. And they really do have dominion over your behavior, my behavior. So there's actually a pretty powerful quote by Parker Palmer. And I'd like to share it with our listeners and close with this, and it's from the book, his book, "Let Your Life Speak: Listening for the Voice of Vocation", which of course, I just love that title. And what he says there is, "Before you tell your life what you intend to do with it, listen for what it intends to do with you. Before you tell your life what truths and values you've decided to live up to, let your life tell you what truths you embody and what values you represent."

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  26:41  
Wow, that really goes back to what you said earlier, we don't choose our values, our values reveal themselves to us, right. And I'm really struck by that. And I think I want to sit with that for a bit and be curious about if there are any values that are trying to reveal themselves to me, because it's really making me think about how, through the decades of my life, your values change, and shift, and that's okay.

Marsha Clark  27:12  
Well, yeah, it is. And I think that that's an exercise worth doing, I mean for all of us, to sit with and get curious about and just notice. One of my favorite phrases is 'notice what you notice'. Right. And what if we were more and better observers of our own behaviors, and paid attention to what you know, those behaviors are trying to tell us, to let our lives tell us the truths we embody. And, and you know, I will join you in that exercise of reflection and introspection.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  27:43  
So I really don't want this episode to end. So I'm going to ask a hot question, which means it's not something that Marsha is expecting. So what if I claim to have a value, and it really helps define my identity, my self identity as a person, but it isn't a value that comes from love. It's a value that comes from ostracizing or putting up a barrier or a boundary, like this value that I need to define me by defining who others aren't.

Marsha Clark  28:28  
Hmm. That's deep.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  28:30  
I'm sorry, I just pulled that out of the way back.

Marsha Clark  28:34  
Here's what I will tell you.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  28:38  
Is that a value or is that a strategy? Yeah. Or, or a problem that needs to be discussed? I mean, is that...

Marsha Clark  28:48  
Or even, dare I say, is it a protection or a coping mechanism? Or is it, yeah, I don't know if that's a value, Wendi. Because I think about what are you getting by ostracizing others? You know, I always ask the question, what are we getting and what are we giving? And so I will tell you, one of my values is unconditional love. And so that means whoever those people are, I want to love them, even if I don't like what they're doing, even if I disagree with how they're living their lives, and that kind of thing. And yet, I also believe God made us all and therefore if I'm going to be Christ-like, I'm going to love everybody, I don't care what and who they are, even some of the most evil people in the world. Right. And so I think there's a protection mechanism with some of that or a coping mechanism. But I think you're gonna have to dig a little deeper to understand what that value is below that. Is it the value of treating people with dignity and respect and when that gets violated, or is it that you have different political views than mine, and therefore I don't like you. Right? So I mean, those are really different.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  30:06  
They are. They are and I, you know, I'm just considering I mean, you know, in today's world where we have so much animosity about different people's different cultures different, you know, what some people feel are different agendas. You know, somehow for some people, they feel like, I need to claim this as my value, and be completely rigid about it to the detriment of others. I'm just, and so I'm trying to get to the nuance of, is that really a value or is that just you're saying, I am who I am who I am, you know, the Popeye phrase. Right, right.

Marsha Clark  30:51  
Right, right. You know, I think that's worthy of a lot of reflection and introspection. I would really ask myself that question of what am I getting and what am I giving up? And what am I protecting in myself? And is this in service to me and me sort of affirming my own views or is it really about, am I trying to destroy someone else? You know, there's a phrase that Bob Eichinger says, and it's that managerial courage comes in search of better outcomes, not in destroying others. And so is your value about, you know, my value of unconditional love is to make the world a better place. And that's in search of better outcomes. And so are there people who I think are trying to destroy this wonderful world of ours, and for personal gain and personal agendas, as you said? Yes. And again, I can say I hate what's going on, and I so disagree with so many things that are happening right now. And yet, can I love those people unconditionally, and know that they are still a human being at that basic core fundamental level? And do I get it right every time? No. You know do I say ugly things about people in moments of Oh, and then do I regret it like everything? Yes, I do.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  32:17  
Yes. Yeah. Well, thank you, listeners for letting us go a little further on that one. So, Marsha, as we wrap up, now, why don't you share a couple of key takeaways from today so our listeners can go and do their own contemplation as we just did.

Marsha Clark  32:34  
Yeah. So the first thing I want our listeners to remember is that we're the origins of the word values, because you know, including those things, the concepts of power, dominion, and worth. And I think, again, the title of the book, "Embracing Your Power", and it's power over my choices, personal power, it's power over setting those boundaries, getting clear about my values, and the dominion and worth, what am I trying to create with this value system that drives my being as well as my doing. And your values aren't something that you're going to do, they're a reflection of who you are now, and, you know, Instagram without the filters, Wendi, as you were saying earlier, you know, iPhones without or smartphones without the filters. And then I would encourage our listeners to find a value certification tool, it can be the one in our book or otherwise, to help you better sort through your truths and priorities. And if your day to day behaviors and choices aren't aligning with this image that you have of who and how you want to be, then you have some work to do to find that alignment. And I also want to say that's a lifelong journey. Every day is a new day. And even within the day, there can be 14 different times where you have to ask yourself... I want to take our listeners back to something when we talked about trust. You know, predictability is one of the behaviors in which you build trust. And what I say, and this borders on a value, I guess, is that I don't want people to be able to predict whether I'm gonna be, you know, loud or quiet or soft or hard or fast or slow or whatever. I want people to be able to predict that I'm going to be thoughtful and intentional. And I think when you look at what your values are being thoughtful and intentional in making those, you know, the choices in those moments of truth, in those moments of truth, am I going to live my values right here right now? Am I going to make the choice, the decision to do that? And are we going to get it right every time? No. And yet, if I'm thoughtful and intentional and take a moment to get clear about that. But I can't even take a moment to get clear if I haven't been clear to begin with. That's what the certifications can do for you.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  34:58  
Exactly. Ah, Marsha, such an enlightening and inspiring conversation. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

Marsha Clark  35:05  
You know I do. This really is core to who we are. And I do love that we had a chance to explore it further today and I hope our listeners, you know, had an opportunity to do some, hmm thinking themselves. So thank you, Wendi.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  35:21  
That needs to be the title of one podcast, Hmm. Well, thank you listeners for joining us today on this journey of authentic powerful leadership. We invite you to download, subscribe, please share this podcast where ever you like to listen and visit Marsha's website at MarshaClarkand Associates.com. for links to all the tools, other resources we talked about today, subscribe to her email list and stay up to date on everything in Marsha's world. You can also find out more about Marsha and where she is and her latest book "Embracing Your Power" on the site as well as her social media.

Marsha Clark  36:03  
All right, so and thank you again, Wendi. And I invite our listeners as always to feel free to contact us, let us know via email, social media channels, you know, questions or comments on the website, whatever you'd like, however you'd like, to discuss anything further that we talked about today. And we do hope you'll join us again next week. And as always, here's to women supporting women!