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Podcast Transcript

Power Movies 3

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:11  
Welcome to "Your Authentic Path to Powerful Leadership" with Marsha Clark. Join us on this journey where we're uncovering what it takes to be a powerful woman leader. Well, Marsha, we are on week three of our four part series exploring the, quote, "Fight for Freedom". And we're in for a powerful discussion today with our panelists. I think we probably could have dedicated two more episodes to today's video, there was so much to cover.

Marsha Clark  0:39  
You know, I agree, Wendi. And I just keep thinking about how much was happening in the timeframes of the 60's and the 70's for the women's movement and civil rights overall. And it was an incredible time of change. I was in high school and early college. Yeah, I remember these things.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:58  
Yes. So we've got a lot to discuss with our guests. And I want us to be able to really dig deep into this week's documentary, which is entitled, "She's Beautiful When She's Angry." The documentary is technically focused on a short time window between 1966 and 1971 when the Women's Liberation Movement was just first beginning in the U.S. and this documentary explores not only that movement, but some of the other intersections in the fight for freedom, and our listeners can find the video and then other resources on the website, which is So let's jump into today's conversation with our guests, Bonita Black and Zoe Sanchez. Ladies, welcome. And thank you for coming on the show.

Marsha Clark  0:58  
And I also want to welcome you. We're excited to have you here with us. And if you would, do a self introduction for our listeners to learn a little bit more about you. Start with where you're located geographically and something about yourself professionally and something fun on a personal level. So Bonita let's start with you. And then we'll come to Zoe.

Bonita Black  1:47  
Okay, fun. I'm not so sure about that. Okay, anyway, I'm Bonita Black. I live in McKinney, Texas. You might as well say I live in Frisco, because if you go out five minutes out of my subdivision, you're in Frisco. So. Both my children went to Frisco schools. Professionally, I dabble in law, insurance, basically the legal part of insurance for the past I want to say 35 -40 years. Okay. I've been married a long time. And I'm getting ready to welcome my first grandchild in a few days. We're waiting for him to get here.

Marsha Clark  2:51  
So all right. Thank you. Thank you very much, Bonita. Zoe?

Zoe Sanchez  2:55  
Hi, my name is Zoe. And I first want to say thank you for having us here today. I live in Plano, Texas. And professionally I am an occupational therapist at an inpatient rehab facility. And something fun, oh my gosh, I have, I don't know. Would you call it fun? But right now I'm actually currently taking classes to become an end of life doula.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  3:22  
Wow. Awesome. Wow.

Zoe Sanchez  3:25  
I mean, I think that's fun. But I don't know if the general public would think it's fun.

Marsha Clark  3:30  
Well, I don't think some of our listeners may not know what a doula is today. So if you could help with that.

Zoe Sanchez  3:35  
So, basically, you know, I think we've all heard of birth doulas with people assisting women to have babies. Well, an end of life doula is helping people transition to that next journey and making it a little bit more comfortable. I won't say easy because it's never easy, but I'm giving family and the person respect, dignity and the resources they need.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:03  
That's wonderful.

Marsha Clark  4:04  
Amazing. We might think about hospice care, but this yes, this is something that takes it even more personal.

Zoe Sanchez  4:10  
Yeah. So, end of life doulas do work in the hospice setting. That's a very popular place. But yes, this is a little bit more personal because we, we as if I'm there, yet. Once I'm there yet we are with them in those final moments if family allows it, of course.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:10  
Right. So I want to call out one thing, Marsha, before you jump in here, I want to call out the fact that Bonita is closer to mine and Marsha's age for our listeners. And yet Zoe's and you're in your 20's, aren't you?

Zoe Sanchez  4:47  
Oh gosh, I wish. No, I am 34.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:57  
Still the baby in the group and then I also want to tell our listeners that Bonita has on a t shirt that says 'ambition'. And Zoey has on a t shirt that says 'empowered women empower women' and I just wanted everybody to have all the feel good vibes and you wish you were in the studio.

Marsha Clark  5:19  
Well and in case our listeners are wondering, obviously, Bonita and Zoe, you're here with us or we wouldn't know what their t shirts said. And I didn't realize this before, but I think the two of you know each other. So I met both of you for the first time though. You know, heard your names from our content creator Tracie Shipman. But how do y'all know each other?

Bonita Black  5:39  
Okay, well, I'll say this. Today is actually the first day we've met in person. But you wouldn't know that by the way we greeted each other, would you? Actually, Tracie, your content creator, her youngest son went to high school with my son which is how she and I met. And I would often see posts on Tracie's Facebook from Zoe about different things going on in the world and, you know, different experiences she's had, or what have you. And I would make comments. And she'd respond. So we just started conversating that way, so I think we became friends via Facebook.

Marsha Clark  6:25  
Oh, there you go.

Zoe Sanchez  6:27  
Yes. So the listeners kind of have a perspective here. I am married to Tracie's oldest, eldest oldest, son Cole. And so I've known about Marsha for years. But I've kind of just been in the background. But yes, as Bonita said, I post specially when I was younger, pre baby. I mean, I had a lot to say, I still have a lot to say. And then Bonita was never fearful to express her opinions and, you know, discuss what's right. And I was gravitated toward to that. And I immediately added her on Facebook. She did and I was like, ya know, the vibe is there. We're friends and age does not matter with me. You know, I've had friends who are like 98, you know, some of my patients, so.

Marsha Clark  7:23  
I love that. I have to tell you, Zoe, I knew Tracie when she was pregnant with Cole. When Cole was four years old at our old house they came over and Tracie came over and she brought him with her first and I don't even remember what we were doing. But we had a swimming pool in our backyard. And he called it a river. He was four. And my husband Dale, you know was keeping him occupied while Tracie and I were doing some sort of work. And as they were getting ready to leave, he said Mama, Mama. Mr. Dale said that if I would come back with my bathing suit that he would let me go swim in the river. And it was like December, January. It was freezing outside. And so that's, you know, one of my most memorable stories about your sweet husband. So anyway, we've got some history here.

Bonita Black  8:12  
And fun fact, too. Tracie is from Indiana originally and so am I.

Marsha Clark  8:17  
Well, there you go.

Zoe Sanchez  8:18  
Bonita, I did not know that.

Bonita Black  8:19  
We didn't know that for the longest time because she would mention Indiana. Where? Because I went to Indiana University and she said 'Oh my god.'

Marsha Clark  8:27  
Yeah. I love it. Oh, my goodness.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  8:30  
Well, I know that all three of you specifically requested to watch this documentary and participate in this podcast discussion. So what was it about this content that resonated so strongly with you even before seeing the film? Zoe, let's start with you.

Zoe Sanchez  8:47  
Okay, well, let's put it this way. I am angry at the rights that are being taken away from women, the injustices that women face today. And firstly, especially women of color. In the healthcare system, child care, I mean, I can go on for days about this. And so whenever I saw the title, she's angry, or "She's Beautiful When She's Angry", like, well, I'm angry a lot. I hope I'm beautiful. But um, it as a person, a woman of color being angry is always seen as a, there's a negative connotation to that, you know. Oh yeah, the angry black woman. The spicy Latina. And, you know, the reasons we are angry are justifiable, you know, they're not just some made up, oh, I'm just having these anger issues and when we speak about it, oftentimes we're not taken seriously because our background of being of color. And so I mean, immediately, I was like, yes, I need to jump on this and then also oh, you know, the Woman's March in 2017, I was part of that. And so that brought me back. And I really did want to see the origins of women's rights and liberation, because now with a child and my job, I don't have the time to, really research everything. And so this gave me the opportunity to really know the names of the women who were involved.

Marsha Clark  10:25  
What about you, Bonita?

Bonita Black  10:27  
Well, for me, I looked at the list that I had to choose from. And I chose this particular video, I mean, movie, because it was three fold for me. I have a 24 year old daughter, who is now of childbearing age, although she says that's far away in her life, but she could realistically have a baby now. I think about and also thought about the fact that I am angry as well, because all of this was going about, coming about in my mother's day and time. And I think I thought about how far we have come since that time. And now I'm living through, I feel a regression of where women are. And my daughter who is going into the healthcare profession, she sees racial disparities all the time. And not just color, but socio economic, and other aspects as well. So, I wanted to see where this movie would take me through this time period from '66 to '71 given that I was born four years before the Women's Liberation Movement really got going. So I just really wanted to see what I was missing.

Marsha Clark  12:01  
Yeah, I love that. I love that, you know, for me, I was age 14 to 19 for this. So I was, some of it I was aware of, some of it I wasn't but you know, when I think about I was angry for the reasons of you know. I remember telling somebody I got mad when I was five years old because the boys were gonna get to camp out in the backyard. And I was a tomboy when I was a kid, so I played with boys because there would just happen to be more boys, a lot of boys on our street. And my mother wouldn't let me spend the night out there. And that was the first time I realized that being a girl was different, wouldn't let you do certain things. And I my mother was doing exactly what she should have been doing. I mean, I get that but it didn't seem, you know, that's not fair. What are the first words that came out of my mouth? And then as I got to college, I was one of those college women who were out there at the rallies and the protests and those kinds of things. Because it was in me. You said something in our previous podcast that we recorded today, Wendi, and it was like we're carrying a wound that's been in women for a very, very, very long time. And I was carrying that wound.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  13:06  
I would like to extrapolate on that. I think we also carry fear. To be woman is to be fearful. I mean, I think about and what I mean by that is we watch our surroundings when we leave the grocery store. We think about where we're walking on the sidewalk. Is that guy following me? And men have no idea that we constantly are in a state of fear.

Marsha Clark  13:36  
We can't do what they can do because we will be treated differently.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  13:40  
That's right. And it makes me think about, there's a series I think it's on Netflix called The Fall, where Gillian Anderson is the star of the show, and she's the DCI detective and she's chasing a serial, serial rapist and murderer. And there's a scene in one of the episodes where she is talking to another woman who's on the police force. And she I don't remember the context of her saying this, but she says essentially, they asked the men, what are you afraid of from the women? We're afraid they'll laugh at us. And they ask the women what are you afraid of from the men? We're afraid they'll kill us. So, that and I don't know where that comes from but I'll figure it out and I'll make sure it's in the show notes. But that's where we come from. We come from a place of we're going to be destroyed and they come from a place of you're gonna laugh at us. So we just went way off.

Marsha Clark  14:47  
But it's a part of why we're angry.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  14:50  
That was the point of why I brought that up. Yes, that's why because the only way that you can really get yourself out of a place of fear is to just get pissed off.

Bonita Black  14:59  
And empowerment. It is.

Marsha Clark  15:05  
So I do want to offer, and what you just described, the notes that I made about this is, I've often used the phrase, there sometimes has to be a breakdown before there can be a breakthrough, and the breakdown, and that created the anger that finally got women coming together to create a breakthrough. And now, as many of you said, the regression part of this is that we've got to get angry again. I mean, that's at least an implication. We can't be satisfied with what's going on. And, you know, where's the outrage with the way things are happening?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  15:43  
Yeah. So, we're gonna explore some of the major themes in this documentary as we go on today. But since I started with the question of what intrigued you about this topic, I also want to know what were y'alls overall thoughts and feelings after watching the film? And Zoe, let's start with you on this one.

Zoe Sanchez  16:02  
Oh, my gosh, I will say that I had a lot of thoughts and feelings, and I found myself getting emotional because like Bonita said, you know, I was not born or alive in the 70's, or the 60's. But the fact that these women were fighting for the rights that now we have to fight for. And me as a mom, you know, my daughter's three years old. I just, I mean, it was a whirlwind, honestly, and I got angry. Again, it took me back to 2000 like I said, I mentioned the Woman's March 2017 when we knew that our rights were gonna be you know, I'm blanking out on the word, but we knew the implications of what a certain occupant's appointees would have on the effect of our abortion rights. And then I, you know, I'm like, Whoa, I feel like we just went back 100 years. I mean, the pandemic itself, it felt like it was 100 years. But to go back to that place where a man, the majority of men made this choice on what we do with our body. I mean, it just.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  17:28  
Like a slap in the face.

Zoe Sanchez  17:30  
It was and I just, I think that ancestral trauma, like it opened up that wound, because I felt it for women of my mom's age, for my grandmother, for their grandmother. And I'm just like, What is going on? I mean, yeah, a lot of thoughts.

Marsha Clark  17:52  
The wound was there.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  17:54  

Bonita Black  17:58  
I had a very mixed, emotional reaction. I cried. I screamed at the television set several times, I might add. And I also felt like not discounting all the women that have gone before me and us to get us to where we are now. But I also felt a sense of dread that a lot of what's happening right now is a sense of complacency. And to be complacent is to not have any movement. And if we are going to be complacent, every right that every woman that came before us is going to disappear right in front of us. And that is why I was so angry.

Zoe Sanchez  18:54  
Bonita, you described everything that I wanted to say more eloquently than I could ever.

Bonita Black  19:00  
But that's really how I felt.

Marsha Clark  19:04  
Bonita and I were talking before we started recording about we laughed, we cried, we yelled, we screamed. I mean, the frustration, and the hypocrisy, the ludicrousness of so much of what they were saying. What are these women fighting for? What did they want? What are they wanting to be liberated from?  Oh my gosh, come walk a mile in my shoes.

Zoe Sanchez  19:24  
Yes, may I add a comment to that? Because, you know, that was in the movie. And I wrote this down, because when I went to the Women's March now, there were a lot of Facebook posts following the march of women. And they put this letter out and I don't have my phone on me. But basically, the title of this letter was like, Dear daughter, this is why I didn't march for you. And it was and I have some quotes here but the resonance instead, I had from, you know, from that time period to now and we talked about complacency. And here we are, so many women on Facebook were judging the women, including myself as like, Oh, you went to march, but like, why and they put this letter. And let me do a little. Where was it? Okay, let me do a little quote from it because I wrote it down because this makes me so angry. In this letter, it says, Finally, it's a lie that any of our human rights as women are going away just because someone whose politics, these ladies don't agree with someone who became president. I mean, yeah.

Marsha Clark  20:16  
We know it's different. We know that we have lost rights.

Zoe Sanchez  20:49  
Yeah. And I wrote down because I'm like, absolutely because he appointed three judges who were essential to overturning Roe vs. Wade.

Bonita Black  21:00  
But we're not going to, I don't want to really get into the political aspects of that because what bothers me the most is that you have women actively fighting against other women.

Marsha Clark  21:12  
Yes. And there was then and there is now. So, and I just want to say to our listeners, that part of the angry part of me in watching it. When I went to college, I was interested in business, and I was going to get a bachelor in Business Administration. Well, the emphasis that you could, you know, it could be an emphasis in various kinds of things. So, for a woman in business, the emphasis that the college gave to me was office management. Or you could be a typist, I could be a head typist office manager. I want to say to our listeners, that was me, not your grandmother, not your great grandmother. I couldn't buy a car in my name until I you know, even if I paid cash for it. And my father had to cosign for me. And if I hadn't had a father, I could have had a younger brother cosign. I couldn't get a credit card. And certainly there was unequal pay for the same work. So those were my realities, not my mother's not my grandmother's those we could name a much longer list. And so that's where I was when I read the title, when I watched the movie, and when I lived the life.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  21:31  
Yeah. So was there one particular moment or story that really jumped out for you and why was that? Marsha, why don't you go first on this one?

Marsha Clark  22:36  
Well, you know, what I would say is that it was a collective anger that came together to change things to make the world better for women and girls. So you know, everyone knows that my mantra is women supporting women. And that's what I saw in this movie, in the sense of, we can make the world a better place. And I got a bit of a chill, you know, we talked about the chill factor in the fact that women supporting women, I never said those words when I was living it or even in my younger years, and I now can see that that is a foundational element of all the work that I do, and that the seed was sown in the times that this documentary represents. So that's what's true for me.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  23:25  

Bonita Black  23:26  
I think one of the biggest things that stood out to me when watching this that I didn't know that was the Jane collective. I had no idea that that was even a thing. I mean, now did I know that women had abortions in back alleys and all that kind of things? I did. I knew all that, but to know that there was an active, there were active women trying to help women, even though they knew it was illegal. That to me, and I'm from Northwest Indiana, which is right next to Chicago, which is where this was born. So I think that just really opened my eyes up to the injustice of what just happened with the overturning. And there were a lot of different things in it. I don't want to just, you know, concentrate on abortion. But that really stuck out to me because as I said before, my daughter is 24 years old. She lives in the state of Texas. What happens if she gets pregnant and doesn't want to be pregnant? What happens to her? Now that goes to the socio economic part of this. If I didn't, if she chose to say, Mom, I'm in graduate school. I don't. This isn't the time for me to have a baby, what have you, I have the financial means, to take her somewhere else to get what she needs. Everybody does not have that situation. And that really pissed me off. So that's a roundabout answer.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  25:21  
Yeah, well, I think for me, especially when we're talking about the women's right to choose issue, I, that's where I come at this like, it's your right to choose. Women should have the right to choose when they want to plan their families. And taking that away is a complete, it's a complete act of control. It is an act of control over a population. And I'm going to bring up something else that again is like way over there on the sidelines, but I recently just finished watching. It's a four episode documentary, kind of pseudo documentary, I think, or maybe a full documentary on the Duggars 19 and counting family.

Bonita Black  26:14  
I saw it. I saw it. I saw it.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  26:15  
Okay, let me tell you something. The reason why I'm bringing this up is because that other side has a strategic plan about birthing so many children that believe in this control of women philosophy, and that women are our second class. And if you are there and it's a homeschooling situation, they believe in the homeschooling situation with a complete agenda to get those people into the political arena.

Bonita Black  26:47  
If you want to talk it uses the word indoctrination.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  26:50  
That's right. Yes, that's right. That's right. So okay, okay. Yeah, off topic, but just wanted to bring that up as well. Zoe?

Zoe Sanchez  26:59  
I'm with Bonita. We're in sync. I mean, I have right here, the Jane Project, and um, I got pregnant in six weeks until I graduated with my master's. And it was all planned. And we did all the right things, because I was never want to be, I want to be a mom, that was just not who I was. I was focusing on my career, on my marriage. And when I saw those two lines, I mean, I panicked, because I thought, I'm six weeks out from graduation. I don't have a job lined up. Cole's the only one working, how are we going to do this? We don't have a house. We have these two dogs, like, I mean, I was floored, and I cried because I felt so helpless. Wow. I'm getting emotional talking about it. But at the time, I had a choice. You know? And obviously, we all know what choice I made because we have my amazing little daughter. And she's super cute too. But the reason I'm getting emotional is because so many women like Bonito said that are you know, in graduate school in college, you know, and who are taking the right precautions ought to get a can happen. Yeah, contraception is not 100%. And to feel that helplessness, I mean, it just takes my breath away to thinking about it. And actually throughout this, I'm not going to mention names or anything, but I had a friend who needed to find resources. And like the Jane Project, I knew a couple of friends who said, hey, you're I mean these, I'd never met these people, but they were there. And then I said, hey, one of my friends needs to reach out to you. And they're like, here are resources, here is who you can call. And let me get their number and we organized for this person, like quickly. And so it was a juxtaposition of me, you know, deciding yes, I was going to have this baby. I mean, being really anxious about and then someone that I knew who just did not have the means to go through with their pregnancy and feeling completely helpless and not having the support from family, not having good finances lined up. And so as women we came together to help that person. Um, so yeah, that was the moment that really...

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  29:46  
l think the last thing I want to layer into all this before we move on to the next question is the fact that abortion is healthcare. There are so many women who have ectopic pregnancies and pregnancies that will threaten the life of a woman, and doctors are now completely restricted to actually saving a grown woman's life. Like we're killing women by doing this.

Marsha Clark  30:13  
Which flies in the face of, quote unquote, 'pro life'.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  30:16  
That's right.

Bonita Black  30:16  
And the Hippocratic Oath that the doctors take to become physicians.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  30:20  
That's right. So what is something that we learned from the film that we didn't already know? And more specifically, how did that impact you when you learned it? And I'll start with this one. To me, it was interesting to watch the differences between the Women's Liberation Movement for white women versus the movement for black women. That was an insightful thing for me.

Bonita Black  30:48  
Or women of color in general.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  30:51  
Right. Right. Right. So, Zoe, what about you?

Zoe Sanchez  30:54  
Um, same thing. And I also want to say the part about, you know, we have the men and the woman fighting for civil rights. And then they get home and the men are not respecting the women, right, not helping with the dinner. Yeah, you're not helping the fight, but to what you said, abortion is healthcare. And we've seen even now, black women are more susceptible to birth death, along with other women of color, and back then not having act I mean, you know, we have all these women but not having, I think there was and I don't have my, sorry, I don't have my notes with me. But there was a lady there. Who started I don't know if you remember, Bonita, but there was a black woman who started like a group for women to get abortion people for women of color. Do you remember that?

Marsha Clark  31:53  
What obviously, I was thinking of the Jane Project.

Bonita Black  31:56  
But there was a separate one.

Zoe Sanchez  31:59  
There was a separate one specifically catered to women of color. So, I thought it was interesting because, you know, you have the civil rights movement and everything, but then the men aren't supporting the women with what they're fighting for. So, but then also the lack of a representation in the Women's Liberation Movement with like, women of, people, women of color, excuse me.

Bonita Black  32:26  
Okay, for me, I went to the place of employment, and education. I've worked my whole life, I've been given the opportunity to work my whole life. I've always wanted to work yet I still wanted to be a mother. So when I saw which I did not know, the Senate approved that broad program of childcare, daycare, and President Nixon vetoed it. I, one was mad at myself for not even knowing about that and two, to be able to share that with my daughter as a historian, because I'm a big student of history, and to see how society views us as basically a commodity at the whim of our quote unquote, "husband" and "home" and home and how the President specifically said, why we need childcare, because we want women at home taking care of the children. I was just, like, in awe, because I didn't know any of that.

Marsha Clark  33:49  
And then justified it to we don't want to be Russian.

Bonita Black  33:52  
We don't want to be like Russian women. We don't want our women to turn into Russian women.

Marsha Clark  33:57  
Right, which was I mean, that was, you know, during the pigs. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Zoe Sanchez  34:04  
I also didn't know that. And that struck me, too, as a working mom now. And Cole works from home. But Luna at the toddler age where it's difficult and we've looked into childcare slash you know, school, a Montessori and stuff like that. And oh, my god, the cost. So, let me tell you, you know, Cole's a computer engineer, I'm an occupational therapist, you think oh, okay. They're pretty okay. No, there is no way we can afford, I mean, we're talking $1,700 a month.

Bonita Black  34:40  
And just to say one thing about that, and I know we've gotta move on to the next question. But as I mentioned earlier, I'm expecting my first grandson. I helped my son and my daughter, look for childcare. I'm trying, you know, to be the catalyst because this is their first child. I don't know what they're doing. Shout out to Frisco ISD for teachers. Shout out because my son is a teacher in Frisco ISD schools, and they do have a program to supplement the cost of childcare. They would not otherwise be able to afford to put their child in daycare had it not been for that program. And they both work full time. Yes, and it's 2023.

Marsha Clark  35:31  
I had that on my list, too, that he had vetoed that educational. And I was shocked in one way that it even passed both houses. And then what? That just added to my anger, quite honestly.

Zoe Sanchez  35:45  
And again, can we just mention that it's men making these types of decisions.

Marsha Clark  35:49  
Yes. And I quite honestly was not aware of the lesbian movement. I'd never heard the term Lavender Menace. I wasn't aware of the witch group. I thought they were issuing hexes. And I'm thinking boy, they were bringing out all the stops.

Zoe Sanchez  35:52  
I was thinking about that on the way here. And I thought, can someone get me a pin of that? I loved it so much.

Marsha Clark  36:17  
And I will take the impact of all of that. So it again, just reminds me of history is not what happened. History is who tells the story. And when women's stories are told, you know, things change. And so this is more of that, but it was just more fuel to the fire of my anger. So yes, oh, I didn't know that. And again, here, I was living in the minute of that. And I didn't know it. And it was just more fuel to that fire. So we're all having a moment here. Alright, so there's lots of intersections that showed up in the film, and the intersection of the Women's Liberation Movement. And and I just want to say the Women's Liberation Movement was what it was labeled for that time. But there were many women's movements to be liberated and to achieve rights. So I want to just acknowledge that. So the intersection with black women that united movement, and I was in my high school integrated with the black school that was in the next neighborhood my senior year. So I but I put that in the bucket of civil rights. And I put women's rights in a different bucket. And I did not necessarily see that intersection. And Bonita, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. And so and then the intersection with the sexual orientation, because that was just again, another one of those taboo subjects. And, you know, the thing that stood out to me was how the term feminism was considered too limiting, and too focused on the aspect of being a female, but did not address the additional challenges of race and class. So, it really interestingly, or ironically, did not appear to be very inclusive, right, which we now put that all together, you know, in our efforts to make it better. And, you know, for the word feminism, and I've had this given that I've worked with women now, with a focus on women for almost 25 years. They call it the F word and I just want to say so you're against women having equal rights. Well, no, I'm not. Well, that's what feminism is. That's all we want. That's it, give us a shot.

Zoe Sanchez  38:15  
It doesn't mean we hate men. Let me make that clear because I feel like that's a big stigma when we say feminism. I mean, I've had guys tell me in 2023 Oh, yeah. You don't shave your legs. You look like you haven't bathed and whatever. And oh, like you hate men. No, I actually, I mean I'm a loving mother. I love being a mom. I think Cole is so cute. I mean, all of that, all of that. We can be, we can encompass all of that and still fight for the equal rights of women.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  38:53  
And again, I just want to point out very quickly, it's always the men who say no, it means that. No, it means you hate men. It means you don't, you don't want to assimilate. I mean, again, it's labeling. But yeah, if you want, if you think as a woman that you deserve to be treated equally as a man, you're a feminist. Period.

Bonita Black  39:17  
I'll take it. I'm a feminist.

Marsha Clark  39:19  
And that equal, what is it the Equal Rights Amendment has never been passed? All right. So, Bonita, I want to hear from you.

Bonita Black  39:25  
The intersection. I look at this from three different angles. I look at it from race, class, and gender. And when I looked at, I didn't know this either. I've learned so much. The Puerto Rican sterilization situation and how that was like brought over here to New York City to the U.S. And I got to thinking as being an African American woman, this isn't just a my problem. This is an every woman problem, because sometimes I think we as people, cart mentalize where we are. Okay, well, I can only fight for black issues. So I can only fight for a Puerto Rican or Latino issues, or I can only fight, that's not true. And this movie showed me that, that it all, when we look at it at the end of the day, women of every creed, race, whatever, we're all fighting for the same thing. And it just is incredulous to me to also see how women in power, Congress, GOP, wherever they are, fighting against what we're fighting for. You're a woman, too. And I'm pretty sure you have a daughter somewhere or granddaughter, a niece or a friend who has a daughter. I'm pretty sure you do. So what is it about? I guess my question then becomes, what is it about women issues, or our fight to be equal, that offends you so?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  41:17  
Well, from one of the past movies that we've talked about prior to this episode, it was they wanted to protect what I'm going to call the golden cage. They viewed their position as being on a pedestal, as head of all things domestic, head of the children. That made them feel that they had that position of power. They were taking their power off of their husbands, but or their fathers. But they didn't want to lose what power they had through that. So, there's a different, it's a different identity. I think today it's more of a, I truly believe it is a strategic slow, slow burn, slow heat the frog in the pot, step by step by tiny step agenda and mission of a lot of the churches here in the States.

Bonita Black  42:25  
I'm inclined to agree with that.

Marsha Clark  42:26  
So, here's what I also, to your point, Bonita, made me think of something of the we're all fighting for the same thing. And so I have a dear friend who also happens to be an African American woman, Mia Mbroh. And she's a trauma therapist. And one of the things I learned from her and I've said it many times on here is every single human being on this planet wants to be seen, heard and valued. And when you think about what are we fighting for? To be seen, heard and valued, period. I mean, all we want is that and if you see us, hear us and value us, we'll be paid fairly. We'll have equal rights. We won't be second class citizens, we won't have to find our identity outside of ourselves. Because and that's what I fight for. That's what I find for.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  43:16  
Yeah, I'm reminded of the part in the film where even the women in the movement were biased against and I'm coming back to the LBGTQ movement that they were biased against each other and the lesbians in the room. And one of the activists was Rita Mae Brown, and I distinctly remember her talking about the groups that were willing to expand to address class and race issues, but that advocating for lesbians was too soon and too divisive. So I guess that's an example of even how people with the best intentions can be short sighted or protective of the progress that they've made so far, at the exclusion of others.

Marsha Clark  44:01  
Well, I think it's a variation of the African American men fighting for their own rights as African American men but not treating African American women with the respect they are asking for themselves.

Zoe Sanchez  44:12  
To the LGBTQ point, yes. I, unfortunately, have met people, have met women who are all for women's rights. But then when we start to talk about transgender rights or to talk about gay rights, then they start to get and then I've had some, I will even say, friends, and I'm sorry that y'all have to hear this from me right here, but we've talked about it before. But when I talked to them about the inequities between them being white women and as a professional, being a Latina in healthcare and how I'm treated, and they're like, Oh, well, I'm also treated like that because I'm a woman.  Like you just completely invalidated what I'm trying to discuss here, (your life experience) yeah, my life experience. And, you know, and so we need to change them.

Bonita Black  45:12  
When you mentioned invalidation that brought up something to me, for me. I was having lunch with a friend of mine, who's a white woman. I have a lot of white friends. I want y'all to know that. I love everybody. So, we were talking about how, they were talking, the collective world is talking about reparations, you know, for slavery or what have you. And her response was, I just don't understand that because, oh, I didn't, I didn't do anything. I didn't, you know, my family didn't have that. And I was so taken aback by that statement to me. And I, we discussed it, and I won't go, you know, we discussed it like adults, her perspective, my perspective, that kind of thing. And she's the type of friend that can hear another person's perspective. Not everyone can.

Marsha Clark  46:13  
That's right.

Bonita Black  46:15  
So, and about disparities, if you want to look at Serena Williams situation when she had her daughter, had she not advocated for herself, because that is true in health care. Black women, women of color, are not listened to or believed like white women, we just aren't. And when if Serena Williams had not advocated for herself about what was going on inside her own body, no one would have listened to her. And she in all intensive purposes may have passed away.

Marsha Clark  46:52  
That's right. And you think about an athlete, they know their body better than anybody. That's their machine, right? You know, I agree with you. And in all of those kinds of things in this idea that we have to be able to hear another person's story. And in one of our previous podcasts, we talked about the accumulation of disadvantage. So we talked about it in the context of two kids coming out of college, they're each offered the same amount of money, the man negotiates 4.5 percent, she 2.7. And over time, by the time they're 65, he's making twice what she is. So, that's one aspect of accumulation. If you go back, what does it matter? We didn't do it to you. But you talk about if you had received 40 acres of land and a mule, or whatever the law said you would receive and you had accumulated that over the last 150 - 180 years, whatever it is, that would be really a really different life experience right now, wouldn't it? And the misinterpretation, the misunderstanding, the unwillingness to see it in those stakes or in those ways really changes the stakes of the importance of such a thing, but it is the accumulation of disadvantage at its finest.

Zoe Sanchez  48:11  
I am so glad that you brought that up because we, Cole and I had this conversation when we started dating. You know, he's from Frisco, so am I. But his little, his upbringing, you know, he wasn't really, he didn't have a lot of friends that were of color, much less dated anyone. And definitely didn't date anyone that was as open and honest and loud about, you know, things. And we had that discussion about accumulation. And I mean, I had to bring it down to him like, hey, let's say I have, we have twins. And one, his name is John. And he's, you know, he looks a certain way. And then the other one, let's name him Juan. He's brown like me, you know. We talked about that. And I mean, that was a moment for him. It was like, wow, you know.

Marsha Clark  48:49  
When we know better, we do better.

Zoe Sanchez  49:08  
I'm so proud of him. And I wish so many people could follow his footsteps to be open to that dialogue because that is really important. So, thank you for bringing that up.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  49:19  
So now, I want to know what everyone thought of the quote from the film: "Change happens because radicals force it." How effective do you think today's equality radicals are effecting change, and, Marsha, I want you to weigh in on this one, too.

Marsha Clark  49:37  
So, I love that quote. "Nice girls don't get the corner office". "Sometimes you gotta break a little glass". There's lots of things out there. You know, I've been in the professional work world for 52 years. And I've been actively supporting women for the last almost 30 years in a really visible way. And I've seen great change over those years. And yet in some ways, I feel like things haven't changed. at all, and women still make less than men for comparable work. And you ladies, when we talk about the intersections, white women 82 cents, black women, it's something like 59 cents, and Latina women 47 cents, something along those lines. And that's wrong. Men are still representing women's issues in congressional hearings. And it just makes me so angry when they're talking about a woman's issue and it's all men having the conversation. Women are still expected to quote unquote, 'do it all' -  be a contributing wage earner, plus a wife, plus a mother, plus the household. And it just makes me tired. But you know, and I also want to call out several other quotes from the movie that stood out for me because I stopped it, I went back and heard it again and wrote it down. One was by this one is "By telling the truth and talking, it is very revolutionary". Just to speak it out loud, ladies. And that's again goes back to we have to tell our stories and our voices must be heard. And another quote was, "The bitter lesson is that victories are not permanent." And that to me is one of these we are in a time of regression or the quote unquote, "rights" that we have been, quote unquote, "given" I say those because I feel strongly about that, are fragile. We just have to know that and the complacency, Bonita, that you talked about, we cannot go back there. And then the last one, and this Zoe, I think about you in this regard, "Every generation has an opportunity to move forward." And you know, I beg and plead  with the women, young women who are listening to this. We're standing up, I'm standing on the shoulders of the women who got us the vote. They were standing on the shoulders of the women who went west across this country to develop, you know, the western regions. The women who, you know, hid their gender to fight in every war that we've fought. I mean, all of those women we're standing on those shoulders, and we must have the strong and broad shoulders for other and younger women to stand on as well.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  52:12  
Well, ladies, this was such a power packed episode. And I love getting to experience this documentary through each of your unique perspectives. It makes the whole thing even more meaningful and powerful. So I would love to hear any last thoughts that you all have. Like, just let's do a little round robin and share one powerful moment from the film for you.

Bonita Black  52:38  
This wasn't in the film. But I think this is a powerful moment. I feel like if we don't remember the past, we are doomed to repeat it. And that's where we are right now. I think right now with women's issues with civil rights issues, with all the issues we're currently fighting for in 2023, perfect example is the Holocaust. If you ask high school students right now that are in high school today, what is the Holocaust, 25% of them don't even know. How scary is that? So that's what I would take. I would basically say, if we don't remember the past, we're going down that road again.

Marsha Clark  53:23  
I think you're right.

Zoe Sanchez  53:23  
So, for me, this is a quote, "We are tired of men controlling our minds and our bodies." And I stand by that today and forever until the day I die.

Bonita Black  53:39  
Thank you for having me.

Marsha Clark  53:43  
I just want to say that, you know, for our listeners out there, we're not here to tell you how to think. We're not. That would be me flying in the face of hypocrisy and everything that I say. Your definition of success and how you want to live your life and your value system are yours. And I would never, you know, want to confront that in any disrespectful way. I want you to be seen, heard and valued just like I want to be seen, heard and valued. And today's topic, you know, there's a lot of strong feelings about it. And yet, you know, we also say women can do hard things. We need to have these conversations. We need to get to know people who are different from us. I think about what's happened in our state of Texas and I have moments where I want to go nuts. And you know, those are moments I scream. The Puerto Rican sterilization, that was when I yelled at the television, and that led to eugenics and guess what Hitler's inspiration for what he did, the genocide there, was our eugenics project over here. And we don't know that well unless you do a little more research, right? And when I think about I want us to know our history, as you said, so that we're not falling into a trap. And the idea of being seen, heard and valued is a right that each of us has. But what I was going to say about our Texas, it strikes me so ironically that we can declare diversity, equity and inclusion illegal as if we are going to say, no, we're not all different. We're all the same. Well, diversity is a fact, we are not all the same. Let there be no question about that. And yet, it's illegal. And I know it's about programs, I get all that. But the statement is diversity is illegal. At the same time that they finally passed a law, the Crown law that African American people can wear their hair the way they want to.

Bonita Black  55:41  
Crown Act.

Marsha Clark  55:42  
Yes. I mean, look at the juxtaposition of that. And, and I just say that is the world in which we live. It's the ambiguity of this is true, and this is true, you know, and so we don't know who we are as a country today is my humble opinion view. And it's up to each and every one of us to stand for what we want this country to stand for. And that's my invitation to our listeners. And I know this is a bit more, dare I say, preachy as to an ending to an episode, but this is me getting angry. This is me, speaking my passion about this. And that's where I am as we close out today.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  56:30  
Yep. So first of all, thank you, Zoe, Bonita. Again, thank you so much for being on this episode today, powerful, powerful conversation. And so for next week, we will be discussing the award winning short documentary called "Period. End of Sentence", which is accessible on Netflix. And the discussion questions will be posted on Marsha's LinkedIn page so that our listeners can contribute their thoughts to that conversation as well. So as we wrap up, thank you all, listeners, for joining us today on our journey of authentic, powerful leadership. Please download, subscribe and share this podcast from wherever you like to listen.

Marsha Clark  57:13  
Yeah, and you know, this is one where I would just ask our listeners this, don't blink and don't look away. You have to, you have to look the ugly in the eye and stand for what you believe in, and your voice matters. Your stand matters. Use it and, dare I say in this particular, my focus being on women and as I close every single podcast, I say it with deep within my heart. "Here's to women supporting women!"

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