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Podcast Transcript

Power Movies 2

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:11  
Welcome to "Your Authentic Path to Powerful Leadership" with Marsha Clark. Join us on this journey where we're uncovering what it takes to be a powerful woman leader. Well, Marsha, we had such an incredible discussion last week as we explored the fight for freedom through the documentary, "By One Vote: Women's Suffrage in the South". This week we're shifting our focus across the Atlantic to explore how the same challenges were being exposed and fought in the United Kingdom.

Marsha Clark  0:43  
I agree, Wendi. You know, last week's exploration of women's suffrage in the U.S. really set the stage for us to see just how women were speaking up and taking risks to stand up for what was right, not just here in America, but all across the world.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:58  
Yeah, exactly. So this week, we opted for a historically based feature film called "Suffragette", which was released back in 2015. And it stars Carey Mulligan and Ben Whishaw and also Meryl Streep. So I'm gonna share the movie synopsis in a moment. But first, I really want to introduce our guests, because we have guests in the studio to talk about this movie. And once again, Marsha, you really, you know, you get to meet some of Frisco's VIP's. I'm so honored to introduce you all to Shannon Hammond and Sherrie Salas.

Marsha Clark  1:21  
And I want to welcome you as well. It's wonderful to meet you. And now that I know your VIP's and as we said just prior to taping, we're going to be new friends.

Shannon Hammond  1:43  
We're excited to be here. So thank you.

Sherrie Salas  1:45  
I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having us.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:47  
Well, since I know both Shannon and Sherrie, I want to say a couple of things about them so our listeners have some context for the incredible advocacy that both of these women do here in our community. Now, Shannon, I think you've actually lived in Frisco for what, like 30 years?

Shannon Hammond  2:04  
30 years. Yes, we moved here in 1995. So a good amount of time.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  2:09  
Okay. And what brought you to Frisco, real quick?

Shannon Hammond  2:13  
Yeah, my husband's job. We were very young in our early 20's. And so he got promoted in his company and we moved out here, thinking we were moving out into the boonies.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  2:23  
Yeah. Okay. So, you've also been very active in the community in a variety of ways, including working for schools and as a small business owner and as a really strong supporter of our Downtown Merchants Association, right?

Shannon Hammond  2:38  
That's right. Yes, I used to work for Frisco ISD for about 10 years as a receptionist in the front offices of elementary schools where I met so many great people. It's where I made so many of my connections. And then my husband and I shifted, and we own a little downtown business in the middle of the Rail District and where we really get to keep meeting great people in the heart of our community in Frisco.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  2:59  
And what's that called?

Shannon Hammond  3:01  
Countdown to Escape. It's an escape room experience.

Sherrie Salas  3:04  
It's fun. My family's done it.

Shannon Hammond  3:07  
It's a lot of fun. And we just, we love that. And then I also love just supporting friends, community. Just everyone. I love supporting each other. I love loving my neighbor.

Marsha Clark  3:17  
I just want to add, you're one of the few people. I moved here in '96 and so I was working at EDS, and you know, moving out here, as you say, out to the boonies. There were, I think around 10,000 people when I moved here, and so you're one of the few people I've ever met that has been here longer than that. It's just been such an influx of people coming in.

Shannon Hammond  3:35  
So, yes, we moved here when there were cows in the backyard everywhere. It was just part of the culture. And it was great. It's great. Still is great.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  3:42  
Shannon has also been an incredible advocate for many of our groups here in the community and that's where we start to see some overlap with Sherrie, because I know that Sherrie is also a part of some of those causes. Right, Sherrie?

Sherrie Salas  3:48  
Yes, ma'am. I am.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  3:49  
Okay, so how long have you, Sherrie, been in Frisco and what got you interested or engaged in local government and local causes?

Sherrie Salas  4:06  
My family and I moved here in late 2009. So I haven't been here for 30 years, but it was still a lot of pasture. I mean, the whole west side was a blank field. So I was here for a lot of the growth. And what originally got me started is a project called Bury the Lines on Main Street. There was some high voltage power lines that were going to go in a massively residential area. And I was one of the four founding ladies of the entire group. And it was a true grassroots effort. We sent 2,300 snail mail letters to Austin, and that was in 2013. So we had email. And you know, it was really neat to join the community together  and we got it done. And that kind of turned me on to it. And then, you know, my mama taught me, protect your home, and that goes outside the walls of my actual place that I sleep in.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:53  
I love that. I love that.

Marsha Clark  4:55  
A woman with a cause.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:56  
Yes. So Sherrie, in addition to being active in and vocal regarding city and state government you were recently one of the ringleaders that lobbied to get Dolly Parton to come here to one of the local downtown merchant businesses and take a selfie while she was in Frisco hosting the Academy of Country Music Awards. Share a little bit about that. How did you get that going?

Sherrie Salas  5:21  
Well, this is a great story, especially since we have Shannon Hammond in the house, little Rail District business ownership. So my friend, Lisa Kirby, and I did the scavenger hunt last year that they had for the Rail District and was an amazing event where it just kind of brought people out to kind of get people to know these things are out here. And we didn't know. And our group, I had never, I mean, we never knew there was a mural of Dolly on the side of Apple Boulevard. And I was like, 'Oh my gosh'. And so my friend and I who did the scavenger hunt fast forward, when we find out Dolly's hosting the Academy Awards were like, Hey, we should go do this, because you know, they had just had other celebrities downtown and I was like, let's go see what we can do. And then I'm hugely passionate about local businesses. So I thought, we get some free publicity. What's lost? And we did and who doesn't love Dolly? She never did the selfie. Oh. I was gonna say she's, she's pretty high-scale celebrity.

Shannon Hammond  6:21  
No, I just want to say even though she didn't do the selfie, we made the news. We did, and like bring people from all over Frisco to have pictures in front of Apple Boulevard with the mural by Patrick Ganino.

Sherrie Salas  6:33  
It was highly fun. It was great.

Shannon Hammond  6:38  
It's just a reminder of bringing community together and how great that is.

Marsha Clark  6:41  
Absolutely. Yeah, that's well, and I just want to say, too, when I think about women supporting women, Dolly is amazing when it comes to that and all the contribution she makes to reading programs in school libraries and all that goes along with that. So in that spirit of because I you'll hear me say this later, we wrap up every one of these podcasts with 'Here's to women supporting women', so I love everything about that story.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  7:05  
Yeah, so I want to kick off our discussion of the movie "Suffragette" with this synopsis from IMDb in case our listeners haven't had a chance to watch it yet. And if you haven't, I'm not going to ruin it, but you definitely need to go, you need to see it. So this is a drama that tracks the story of the foot soldiers of the early feminist movement, women who were forced underground to pursue a dangerous game of cat and mouse with an increasingly brutal state. These women were not primarily from the genteel, educated classes. They were working women who had seen peaceful protests achieve nothing. Radicalized and turning to violence as the only route to change, they were willing to lose everything in their fight for equality - their jobs, their homes, their children and their lives. Maud, who you'll hear about here as we keep talking, Maud Watts was one such foot soldier. This is the story of her fight for dignity. As gripping and visceral as any thriller, it's also heartbreaking and inspirational.

Marsha Clark  8:13  
I would agree with that. When I think about this was not that long ago.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  8:17  
I know. 1912. London.

Marsha Clark  8:20  
Yeah, how women were treated at that time. So, Shannon and Sherrie, I'm curious. Had either of you seen the movie before we invited you to be a part of the panel for this podcast?

Sherrie Salas  8:30  
I had not, especially since it was 2015. I was surprised, but I will say I really Meryl Streep being in it being a powerful woman. I mean, I saw when you did this information, I saw Meryl Streep, and I'm like, Well, I've gotta watch this.

Shannon Hammond  8:43  
I had never seen it. And I mean, embarrassingly, I didn't know much about the suffrage movement. I really didn't. So this whole thing was super eye opening.

Marsha Clark  8:53  
Well, I want to say to both of you, I mean, this is not stuff you get to read in the history book because they didn't tell the stories.

Sherrie Salas  8:58  
And I watched the other one that y'all did, the One Vote.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  9:02  
By One Vote: Women's Suffrage in the South.

Sherrie Salas  9:04  
As a female, I was angry. I was mad because I'm like, these aren't horrible things to know. But that's not what we received in our education in history.

Marsha Clark  9:14  
Yeah. You know, there's a book that Wendi and I've talked about many times on this podcast, and it's called "Cassandra Speaks". And one of the quotes in there is about "History is not what happened. History is who gets to tell the story". And so when you don't get to hear the woman's story, that I mean this we've got to dig deep in YouTube or Netflix or Prime Video or whatever to find a story. And then you hadn't, it's not surprising you hadn't heard. I hadn't heard of half of this stuff when I started doing the work and supporting women in a bigger way. And I watched some of these movies with my mother, who turned a year old the day after women got the vote. And I mean, she cried, she just cried. And I've now watched some of these with my granddaughter. As we get, we can't lose all that we've learned through this process about what women went through to give us this right. I laughingly say many times because we show some of these movies in our my programs is that you'll never not vote again when you realize what women went through to give us this right to vote. And so I am glad that we prompted an opportunity for you to get to watch these.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  10:29  
Yeah. So the movie opens with the voices of men speaking over the images and the sounds of women working in the laundry. And I want to just kind of set the stage for our listeners, this laundry is like how dry cleaning happened back in the day. Like these were huge, open factories that were boiling hot with boiling hot water. And it was the laundry service mostly for the classes that could afford having laundry. And so these women were working in these places with lye. There were no Bounce sheets, like there was lye and dangerous chemicals and boiling hot water and they were doing and washing clothes by hand. So the men as it turns out in the government are called MP's or Members of Parliament. And so I'm going to ask each of you to read aloud what these MP's are saying. So, Sherrie will take MP number one as the movie opens?

Sherrie Salas  11:37  
Women do not have the calmness or temperament or the balance of mind to exercise judgment in political affairs.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  11:46  
Shannon, how about sentence number two.

Shannon Hammond  11:48  
If we allow women to vote, it will mean the loss of social structure. Women are well represented by their fathers, brothers and husbands.

Marsha Clark  11:57  
Yeah, and the third one: Once the vote was given, it would be impossible to stop at this. Women would then demand the right to becoming MP's, cabinet ministers, judges. So I just read all those, you know, we were talking about yes, we're such a frail gender here. And it just it makes me angry on so many levels and how some of this is still...

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  12:18  
But yet we can have babies.

Marsha Clark  12:21  
Oh yes, we can have babies and do hard things. So, when you looked at that, how did that, what impact did that opening have on you just as you think about those words being juxtaposed over this, the obviously harsh conditions of the laundry facility itself?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  12:37  
Go ahead, Shannon.

Shannon Hammond  12:38  
Well, it's just incredible opposites. It's the men that are speaking here are telling us what we should believe about ourselves. And for so long, I believe we, we believed that about ourselves. (We bought it.) We really did. We bought it. That's just what came to me. It reminded me of my upbringing and my faith community. And that's just something that I've gone through recently, but just kind of believing what I was told about women: be quiet, let the men make the decisions, let the men speak. And it's something I think a lot of us just have accepted over the years. And these women, these poor women, did too.

Sherrie Salas  13:16  
Well, I mean, per faith, you know, the Bible says the woman's supposed to submit to the man, but there's like a whole other section that says how the man's supposed to treat the wife. You're supposed to put her on a pedestal and treat her like the church. Like it's so, it's a working relationship. And so I think over time in history, because we're humans, that you can adopt things that are convenient to whatever we want. And I think that's what the men were doing. I mean, they, it would take a lot to like, what was it called in the One Vote where the change was called something, just the massive change on a large level, that takes a lot. And why do it if you can just keep the women you know, in the house.

Marsha Clark  13:53  
In a one up and one down position where the men are always the one up and the women and people of color and others that were a part of these movements we're always in the one down position. And I do think it's like, it's like extracting something out of context, right? We'll pick and really emphasize this part of the story, the Bible, the script, whatever it may be. And we'll ignore that there's other things that, like you say, Sherrie, balance that out.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  14:19  
So in the synopsis, and obviously, then what we experienced throughout the film were examples of women and what they were, that they were really willing to lose everything in their fight for equality - their jobs, their homes, their children and their lives. So I'm curious, all of you, what from the film stood out as especially inspiring or heroic?

Shannon Hammond  14:45  
Well, I'd like to go first, if I could. I have a real strong something that jumped out at me is that Maud, you know, the main character here. It wasn't necessarily her passion to be a leader or to stand out, speak out. She wasn't driven by anything in the beginning I saw, but what she did was she saw in Violet's daughter, I can't remember the girl's name.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  15:12  
The 12 year old, right? Maggie.

Shannon Hammond  15:14  
She saw what was happening to Maggie and I think she viewed herself, she saw herself as a 12 year old girl and thought, I need to speak up for her. Like, that's bothering me about what's going on with her. And so it took doing something for someone else for Maud to speak up. And then it soon became something that was, that she really was passionate. She grew in that, you know, being a part of the cause and it became real personal.

Marsha Clark  15:42  
Yeah. And Shannon, I just want to remind our listeners, you know, we've talked about on here before that women can advocate on behalf of others much more readily and easily than we can advocate on behalf of ourselves. That is research based again and again and again. And what you just described, was that, right?  It's easier to advocate for another young girl or another woman than it is for ourselves. It's so true. And I, you know, I want to add, when I think about when she asked her husband, where do you see our daughter's life? And she'll be just like you He answered 'She'll be just like you. She'll be a wife in the home.' And to me that flipped something in Maud, where even though she didn't consider herself a suffragist, something in her. And so again, it wasn't even for her. It was thinking about the young women that would come after that.

Sherrie Salas  16:38  
So my response to this, Wendi, is in the way you list on their jobs, their homes, their children and their lives. I think a lot of women would probably choose to put themselves, their lives, before their own children. So Maud, you know, she lost her child. Yes, but I read it differently. I read that there was like some innuendo, that Maud also was abused by that same person when she was 12. So then I really wondered, like the whole thought around it is do we know that that son was actually her husband's baby? Because you know, if that's going on, didn't even know what was that what was really interesting to me was, then she gets kicked out of the home and a man who may not even be that child's father gets to keep him and make the decision to then may not have been, but she is truly the mother. Yes. I mean, that is a web. And that's what, that was the one thing that I was like, 'Oh my gosh'. And then of course, at the very end, when you see the actual video and movies, it was another very powerful moment for me, Wendi.

Marsha Clark  17:39  
And I go back to that, Sherrie, and think about the father will take the son away from his mother and not blink because he was punishing her. Not, not saying I'm a better provider for him, or I'm a loving parent for him, but I'll show you. That was more important, a position of power over more than an act of love.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  18:04  

Sherrie Salas  18:05  
Yeah, but then also, you have to also think about the next level. They obviously lived in a level of poverty, would effect him and the child being cast out if they had allowed Maud to stay because the people of higher power around the husband probably would have had, you know, a plan for them to kick them out or do whatever.

Marsha Clark  18:05  
Well, and he was being ridiculed at work and all that kind of stuff for the stand that his wife was taking. It does get complicated. I agree, and yet the motivation matters.

Sherrie Salas  18:29  
It absolutely matters.

Marsha Clark  18:31  
I'm gonna, this is just my interpretation. I'm gonna bet the father didn't fear being kicked out. He, my sense is his motivation truly was to have power over Maud.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  18:59  
Oh, yeah, for sure. So my key heroic moment was when Maud has been arrested for I can't remember maybe the second time or the third time and she's sitting there talking to Mr. Steed, like the head investigator cop guy that she's talking to. And he says, 'You do realize you're breaking the law'. And she says, 'The law means nothing to me. I've had no say in it. We break windows, we burn things, because war is the only language men listen to. We've nothing else left'.

Sherrie Salas  19:15  
It was so good. There was another line that she says. "The law doesn't respect me. So how can I respect it back?' Yes. Maud didn't say that. The friend said that, but that still had power.

Marsha Clark  19:29  
Sentiment. Absolutely. Yeah. So one of the key leaders of the suffrage movement in the U.K. was Emmeline Pankhurst and she was played by Meryl Streep in this film. And Pankhurst and her daughters founded the Women's Social and Political Union in 1903. And that became the leading group encouraging these acts of civil disobedience such as throwing rocks through the windows as we saw in the film. And one of the speeches that really stood out to me was from Pankhurst where she basically explained why they were becoming more and more militant. And here's her statement: "For 50 years we have labored peacefully to secure the vote for women. We've been ridiculed, battered, and ignored. Now we've realized that deeds and sacrifice must be the order of the day. We're fighting for a time in which every little girl born into the world will have an equal chance with her brothers. Never underestimate the power we women have to define our own destinies. We do not want to be law breakers. We want to be law makers. (I also love that line, parenthetical). Be militant, each of you in your own way. Those of you who can break windows, break them. Those who can further attack the sacred idol of property, do so. We have been left with no alternative but to defy this government. If we must go to prison to obtain the vote, let it be the windows of government, not the bodies of women that shall be broken. I incite this meeting and all the women in Britain to rebel. I would rather be a rebel than a slave." So I mean, we call something here we say we have the chill factor, which is one of our metrics. You know you said something important when you get chills. So even as I read this, it is a chill factor moment. So I'm curious. Your thoughts and reactions, Sherrie and Shannon, to this brave, rebellious statement.

Shannon Hammond  21:40  
I envisioned myself standing there and hearing this. And I was torn. It was very, first of all, it was very inspiring. It was like, she's a badass, like, amazing. But then I was torn with what I had been raised with and what I've taught and the the things I've been taught, 'Don't you ever step out of line. You follow these rules. You break the law, you're committing deep mortal sins, too. Then you're condemned. It was like, How do I even choose to step outside of what is toeing the line, being a slave. Like she said, I would rather be a rebel than a slave. To step over to be a rebel would have been a huge break in my upbringing from the patriarch. And just thinking of all those women, too, just I mean, really what were they thinking? It just, the internal battle, to truly step over and do what I believed was right, and, but stepping outside of that little box that I was put in.

Marsha Clark  22:40  
Amazing. Sherrie?

Sherrie Salas  22:41  
So for me, I really thought about how I personally have witnessed some of how government and legislators and stuff is done. And, you know, to get a community together and get something done, the power lines project took us three years. And I stayed with it till the very end. It takes a very long time to get very little done. And so when, you know, she starts out talking for 50 years, for 50 years, they've been advocating for something that the Constitution basically says they should have had. But I mean, I know there ammending but still, when I heard the very last line rebel than a slave, because I'm more of a knowledge is power. Let's sit down and talk out. Let's be smart and explain. But what she was saying is we've been doing that for 50 years. And so the fact that it came to that because it's true rebel than a slave, and I don't want my daughter to be a slave, and I want to step up, that's when I did the same thing. I put myself in the audience, would I be able to respond to her? And I absolutely would especially, you know, for future women. And then I also got frustrated, very frustrated, because this was set in like, in the early 1900's. And history showed them right then, that they were smart. They tried to advocate responsibly, and they still, the men just didn't react. The leadership didn't react and it was pushed to violence. They blew up the house. And then of course, it's the ladies' fault. Well, that was frustrating because we see that today. Yes. Oh, yes, gaslighting. You know, there are people advocating for things that are just obviously right. But leadership wants to say, oh, no, no. And it's frustrating, because history has showed us right here.

Marsha Clark  24:15  
Well, and the conditioning we all get to be good girls, right? Good girls would never do this. And yet, I often think about book titles and some of the headlines of sometimes you got to break a little glass, how literal that was in this particular movie. And then the other is 'Nice girls don't get the corner office'. So this be nice, sit in the corner, do as you're told, you know.

Sherrie Salas  24:36  
Well behaved women seldom make history.

Marsha Clark  24:39  
Exactly. And so we've got to have somebody who's willing to be, to make the trade off's for doing the right thing in support of something larger than themselves. And I will tell you, I'm a big believer that judgment trump's policy and process. Sometimes you have to use judgment, because policy was made at a certain time or for certain reason and life changes and the world changes and, you know, it moves on and I'm not going to break every law and do all of that. But if I believe this is a cause for human dignity, I'm all over it.

Sherrie Salas  25:22  
Well, and you're saying goes with something I say. Bad laws are often made and laws in general are made from bad behavior, bad decisions. So if people were not making, you know, bad decisions, we, you know, we wouldn't have to restrain even more. We would just pause and be like, this is right, we don't, we shouldn't have to break windows and burn up buildings and throw ourselves in front of a horse.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  25:45  
So for me, what really hit me about her speech from the balcony is something that I think she said later in, in the movie, but her quote is, "It's deeds, not words that will get us the vote. Deeds and sacrifice, not words." So I'm with you there, Sherrie, that I mean, they've been trying to talk and be reasonable with the men in power for decades. It's time to do something different. Like seriously, you cannot keep you know, having logic is not getting through. So we've got to do something else. And that's what really it is.

Sherrie Salas  26:23  
And isn't it interesting it goes back. They blame the ladies for breaking the windows, they blame the ladies for blowing up the house and all that stuff when really, are they to blame? I mean, they took action because they really were ignored.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  26:33  
Well, not only did they keep getting ignored, they actually didn't have any rights under the law. So how can you hold them subject to breaking the law? Right.

Sherrie Salas  26:44  
Ignoring them, the consequence was getting bricked and broken windows.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  26:47  
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so, here is what I wonder and I keep thinking about as I watched this movie. Do you think women today would sacrifice as much as these women did to fight for freedom? And then I guess I'm, so that's question one. And then I guess I'm also curious if there are examples of sacrifices or risks any of us  have to share where we've gone out on a limb to advocate or fight for freedom, whether that's for women's rights, or the rights of any other marginalized group. Shannon, Sherrie?

Shannon Hammond  27:23  
My first thought, you know, would women today sacrifice as much as these women did? I don't, I really don't know. Because we're, I'm thinking about our, my community and my friends.

Sherrie Salas  27:34  
We take our freedom for granted, too.

Shannon Hammond  27:36  
We're super comfortable and stepping out and to make a sacrifice. Like, that's, that'd be pretty uncomfortable. And I think a lot of us want to be accepted, want to be part of part of everything and so I truly don't know. And I don't want to underestimate our community. But I don't know. But I will say, though, very interesting that have I ever gone out on a limb to or risk something for a marginalized group or something? I used to think I went out on a limb until I watched this movie. And what that would, what I was gonna say my example would have been a year ago. Basically, I've gone through, you know, just a big change and looking at my values and my belief systems and all over the last few years, trying to figure out you know, what's true, and what was cultural, what was just my faith community, and patriarchy. So, and I'm still going through that. So a year ago, I had just begun demonstrating my love for the LGBTQ community. And that was just, I love them. I'm passionate about them. I have lots of friends in the group. And my big risk that I thought I was taking was hanging the pride flag out front of our business during June, for Pride Month, and I lamented over it, I weighed the cost, was I willing to give up business, was I willing to be mocked, all that. Then we hung up the flag. I was so proud of myself inside. And the more I have learned over the last year is, boy, that was tiny. Boy, that was little. That was almost like just using words, it was a tiny action. And then I just see what these women went through to have a voice, to have a vote, and what the LGBTQ community goes through and other marginalized groups to be heard, to be accepted to have equal rights, that was just so tiny. And I'm almost embarrassed that I thought that was some big act of, you know, valor on my part.

Marsha Clark  29:34  
Here's the part of me that says it was a, it was a visible action on your part. And the many small things that if each of us did those small things on a continuous basis, that's how momentum gets built. That's how big movements emerge as grassroots or whatever it may be. And, you know, don't underestimate the value. I agree with you. Don't underestimate the value.

Shannon Hammond  29:57  
That's encouraging. Thank you, guys.

Sherrie Salas  29:59  
I want to add okay, so do I think women would do it today? No, I don't know. I mean, because unfortunately, it's not their own desire that we're up against. It's what today's machine with social media can make real for the people. I mean, they had one newspaper in this movie, which back then I'm sure was a very big deal. It's a machine, and it's always going, you know, 100%. And then on top of that, it's not just from one direction that you're going to get beat down. In some groups that you advocate for, if you don't know them, specifically, the way that you know, they want you to and you make one misstep, then automatically you can become the enemy. It's a lot. But I ultimately do always say it's going to be on my gravestone 'She died believing in the people.' And I think really, when we get to a certain point, the majority of people stand up for what's right. Like Shannon said, I think people are comfortable and I referred people take their freedom for granted. I think we're kind of feeling some of that being questioned right now with some of the things going on. So anyway, that's my opinion.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  31:10  
Yeah, I also want to jump in and say that we're recording this in Frisco, Texas, which has all of, the number one place to raise a family, number one place to start a business, number one place to raise them safely place, the safest place in America, blah, blah, blah. Like we are Mayberry in real life here. And I want to be clear for our listeners as well. We are four white women of privilege sitting here recording this episode as well. So, we all own that. I feel like it doesn't become an issue until it becomes your issue.

Sherrie Salas  31:49  
Cheers, Wendi!

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  31:52  
You know, or your kids issue. You know, what's that big, huge thing. They came for the communists and I said nothing because I'm not a communist. They came for the whatever, like that big poem about I don't that I remember that day. Hopefully everyone here will, give us comments. Tell us what that is that I'm thinking of. But then you know, and then there was no one left, but me. And that's the end of the event for me. And there was no one left to speak on my behalf. So I feel like it's something that once it just starts to hit home for you. But the sad thing is, we're also like frogs in a pot, which those of you here in the south know that the way that you kill a frog is you put it into a pot of nice warm water. And he thinks he's taking a bath. And then you just slowly turn up the heat. And eventually he boils to death, but he never jumps out because he's comfortable.

Marsha Clark  32:49  
Yeah. Well, I love all of that. And I, like you, I don't know. And yet I do think there are enough attacks on women's rights, that there will be a group to stand up. And I think there's a newer generation coming in that knows what was there. And I think that they're speaking out more than many did. I came from the 60's generation when it was civil rights and women's rights and yet, it was still a new thing. And here I am now you know, 50 years later, 50 plus years later, still doing the same thing. But I will tell you my first experience in standing up for a marginalized group, I had a special needs sister. Our listeners know that if they've heard some of our previous podcasts. And in seventh grade, one of the girls in my PE class was making fun of the special education children. And she was imitating their walk and their speech and so on. And she knew I had a special needs sister. And I'm not proud of this. I slapped her. And I'm not a violent person and I hate violence. And yet it was just an immediate reaction was probably natural. How dare you. And I got sent to the principal's office, as I should have been. And he said I understand it. It's not right what she did. Slapping her is not the answer. And I think because that was personal to your point, Wendi, it was just automatic for me. And I say I learned unconditional love for my sister and I learned to stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves. And that's where my big risk and my big, you know, early on in my life that was a big part.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  34:35  
So one of the other things that jumped out for me on the IMDb page for this film were the tag lines and we use them on this podcast so they caught my eye. And the taglines for this film were mothers, daughters, rebels. And so my question to the group is do you think of yourself as a rebel and if so, in what way?

Shannon Hammond  34:59  
I think think of myself as a little rebel just a little bit. I think the people that know me would probably agree. For instance, I like to wear white pants after Labor Day. Yeah. And I like to advertise that. I like that. But also just, I know I keep going back to my hardcore upbringing and just pushing the limits, asking questions. Not being okay with things that don't settle right inside of me. Not to be disrespectful and rude but I'm going to ask the questions. And I think people sometimes think of that as rebellious. But I like to push it a little bit.

Sherrie Salas  35:36  
Do I think of myself as a rebel from then? No, because I mean, that was a lot. Could I be? Yeah, I'm sure I could. I'm a hot mess. I can be mouthy.

Shannon Hammond  35:47  
You as a rebel. Just to set the record straight.

Sherrie Salas  35:52  
Yeah. Before we even started, I was referencing how I was mouthy and Shannon's more of a ray of sunshine. She's very positive and very, like, in my personal opinion, we as women, it takes a group and it takes all kinds and so when, I'll go back to the powerlines. The four ladies that started that group, we couldn't, it was all very natural and organic. We didn't go out and pick people, we were just the four residents, ladies who wouldn't let it go. And it was amazing how much our strengths and weaknesses totally complemented each other perfectly. And I think it's important because I would consider myself a rebel because I have a tendency to be willing to say what everybody else is thinking before most., But I do think push come to shove, as women, it's our nature. We all have a little bit of rebel in us.

Marsha Clark  36:40  
It's the only way we can make it through any given day. What do you think about all the what are now known as micro aggression? Think about all of that. But you know, Wendi, you know I consider myself a rebel and I you know, my identity when you're asked to name your identity, I'm a social justice warrior. And I'm for women and girls. My target area and hashtag value women and girls. And so I very much identify as a rebel.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  37:05  
Yeah, yeah. I don't know if I identify as a rebel, but I'm with you, Sherrie, like things come out of my mouth that everybody else are thinking half the time. And that's my, that's my first reaction to things sometimes. I don't know that I think of myself as a rebel. And here's why. I think, and I think all of you are raised either here in Texas or the south or something. I mean, I think that that socialization starts on us from such a very small age to sit still, look pretty. Here's the bow on your head. You are not to get yourself dirty. Don't push Johnny, Johnny can push you, you know, whatever. Don't brag because he's flirting with you. That's right. That's right, because he likes you. So you need to just take it.

Marsha Clark  37:56  
First steps of domestic abuse.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  37:58  
Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Marsha Clark  38:02  
And we've accepted that along the way. And, so I want to, you know, offer some thoughts in a question as well. So there were never a number of times I found myself noticing many of our leadership themes that we talk about, that were represented in the movie. And obviously, starting with misogyny, which is, you know, the extreme hate and distrust of women. And that was everywhere, from all walks of life, from family, to friends, to, you know, employees, to government, and so on. And yet, on a more positive note, I saw beautiful, beautiful examples of women supporting women, setting and holding boundaries. And you know, it's the line from the movie that contender principles are only principles when you practice them when it's inconvenient. It was very inconvenient for these women, and they held those boundaries anyway. They handled betrayal, people who said they were going to, you know, vote yes or support them and did not show up again, something we experience in our lives today. And the list just goes on and on. So we talk a lot about power and being powerful here on the podcast. So, Sherrie and Shannon, what and where did you see women demonstrating? You can think about it in terms of leadership, power, supporting one another, boundaries, really many of those qualities that were represented. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. So, Sherrie, let's start with you.

Sherrie Salas  39:25  
Well, support obviously when Maud got kicked out of the house, she had a place to go and they helped her out. That's a big deal because having shelter and having food for women that are in trouble is a big deal.

Marsha Clark  39:36  
Maslow's number one hierarchy of needs.

Sherrie Salas  39:38  
And then I will say one of my favorite things in the movie as far as the whole power and support and strategy, political strategy. Women can be much more strategically inclined in some things and when Meryl Streep's character had the speech on the balcony and they dressed up a different person to go out the front door, whichever door it was that she went for the cops to get her there and then they scooted her out the back door. They had like a whole plan and big show for her to leave the building and fooled the men, and it worked perfectly. And that's how women roll.

Marsha Clark  40:19  
Well, I do. And, and we know biologically speaking, that that men can compartmentalize because of the structure of their brains. For women, everything's connected everything else. So our ability to see the entire system in a comprehensive way is what allows us to have some of those strategic viewpoints and putting those into action. So I love that.

Sherrie Salas  40:44  
And isn't it interesting that their entire environment - running a household, feeding babies, working also on top of that to help feed babies in this movie, I'm talking about in the movie setting - Maud's required to do all of this and asked to do all of that, but she's not smart enough to get a vote and so I thought that was, I really enjoyed that part of the movie.

Marsha Clark  40:44  
Shannon, how about you?

Shannon Hammond  40:46  
Well, I just loved, just the one tidbit I'll pull out of this is I loved how Maud supported Violet when she, Violet, said I just can't do it anymore. Violet just said, you know, I'm pregnant. I can't do it. I've got to step back. And Maud, she didn't ridicule her. She didn't ridicule her, put her arm around her and says, that's okay. We gotcha. And just, I just love that.

Sherrie Salas  42:02  
That's a good one, too.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  42:07  
Yeah, I agree. I liked that one also.

Marsha Clark  42:18  
Wendi, how about you?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  41:32  
So my whole thought about boundaries, betrayal, power, being powerful, like just what all went on here is there's a part that the head investigator, Mr. Steed, says to Maud again, or at some point in the movie, at some point when she's arrested he says to her, "You're only fodder for a battle you can't win." And that whole thing about, you know, him implying to her that you can't win this, ie, it doesn't matter how many women come together to support you other women, like it just doesn't matter because we're going to win this. And yet the fact that they continued to try different things, whether that be talking or eventually, violence, breaking windows and violence, they just kept moving forward with trying to get their message out and trying to be heard.

Shannon Hammond  42:36  
And that says so much about their strength, because it is so easy to just get defeated and just stop. Yeah, we need to listen to him. And and then they're getting their way again, patriarchy rules. I mean, just it's, it's easy to get defeated.

Marsha Clark  42:53  
Well, as we've all said, there's so many places in this movie where maybe it was inspiring to us about women supporting women, or maybe it was appalling to us about how women were getting treated, or it was challenging to us when we think about what would I do if I were in those those places. And so I think all the movie is rich because of all of that, right? All of the myriad emotions that it it conjures up in us. And I want to share something with our listeners that caught my attention. And this was toward the very end of the movie. When we see Maud reading a copy of Dreams by Olive Schreiner and it was published in 1890. And we hear her reading an excerpt from this book that was really stunning to me. And so I want to share it with our listeners. "And she stood far off on the bank of the river. And she said, 'For what do I go to this far land which no one has ever reached? Oh, I am alone. I am utterly alone'. And reason, that old man, said to her 'Silence. What do you hear?' And she listened intently, and she said, 'I hear a sound of feet 1,000 times 10,000 and 1,000's of 1,000's and they beat this way'. He said they are the feet of those that shall follow you. Lead on." So for those who've listened to us often, you know we have a practice of rereading those things that we find especially powerful. First time for the head, second time for the heart. So I'm going to reread that again. And I'd love to get our panelists thoughts on this and yours, Wendi. "And she stood far off on the bank of the river and she said, 'For what do I go to this far land which no one has ever reached? Oh, I am alone, I am utterly alone'. And reason, that old man, said to her 'Silence. What do you hear?' And she listened intently. And she said, 'I hear a sound of feet 1,000 times 10,000 and 1,000's of 1,000's. And they beat this way'. He said, they are the feet of those that shall follow you. Lead on." And I just want to say, the part that stands out so much that is a conversation I have at least once a day is the statement, 'Oh, I am alone' because I hear from women all the time, I was the only woman in the room, I was one of the few women in the room. And then I think back to this, those are the feet that shall follow you. I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing it for our daughters and our granddaughters and our nieces and our God daughters and the women of generations to come. So, this again, is one of those chill factor moments for me. So, Shannon, how about you?

Shannon Hammond  46:02  
Interesting, I thought of the feet of those that shall follow us. I thought, first of all, who's going to follow me? Am I a woman worthy of being followed with the way that I live or the way that I lead? And what am I doing? Am I living in such a way that would make people want to follow me. And so I'm still pondering. I don't know the answers to this, but I'm just still thinking about that.

Sherrie Salas  46:28  
And my response is, for me, and I have my bathroom has quotes all over it. Some are like, there actually can be contradicting one another. But I'm a big leadership quote. And for me, what I got from this is what I think is important about good leadership is that you have to stay humble. And it shows that she needed to be told, you know, they'll follow you. And the thing about leadership is you can be elected into leadership. That doesn't mean you can lead because a leader has people that are willing to air quote, 'follow' And you know, just because the ballot says you won, you don't win until the people are willing to follow you, agree with you, support you. And so that's what I got from that. And I think the ladies that were probably, you know, leading a lot of that movement probably had the ability to do that because they probably wouldn't have been successful, to be honest. People had to be willing to go even under some of the most terrible circumstances. So that's what I got from that.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  47:32  
Yes. To all. And I heard, I think several things about those are the feet that shall follow you. I heard, like you, Marsha, heard generations, when I heard this. I also think it's very interesting that reason was an old man.

Marsha Clark  47:51  
I did too.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  47:52  
I think that's very interesting that reason is an old man. And so that's something else that we can ponder. But I love the fact that you're bringing out the fact of aloneness, because we all think that we're living a singular experience that no one else has. And yet that's not true.

Marsha Clark  48:16  
And there's something wrong with me. You know, this idea of would anyone follow me because I'm little ole me, right, not because that's what we buy into that narrative to that screen.

Sherrie Salas  48:28  
I have to apologize. I had not read that book or was familiar with that. But so I agree with you like, but that's also how a lot of good leadership starts is just a regular person realizing something's wrong, and getting with another regular person. And this is wrong. Well, but the law on this is this. Yeah, but it's still wrong. Yeah, yeah, that's wrong.

Shannon Hammond  48:48  
Well, and going back to that, IMDb synopsis about the movie. It says these women were not primarily from the genteel educated class, they were working women. And I just think that that's all about my passion for it. Just regular people. You don't have to be special or rich, or have social standing. It's regular people that make a difference. And every single listener, and all of us and our friends and community, we are regular people and we can do these things.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  49:17  
And I loved also the fact that as I was watching the movie, Shannon, you're making the comment about how they were regular people, but it was basically tenements like them. In England in 1912 in London, you were either super rich or you were the majority of the people who were living in tenements and working in these laundry houses and the guys were, you know, digging coal, and all of that.

Sherrie Salas  49:42  
The way the wealth was moved was via the men. The wealthy, you could be a female born into those very wealthy families.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  49:49  
And yes, and you were still being controlled.

Marsha Clark  49:52  
I was working, I just graduated the class from the Texas Women's Foundation, their Women's Leadership Institute last week and one of the women in there, Tina Bower, shout out to you from Children's Health. She said are you going to be, and she works in the space of diversity, equity and inclusion, and she said, 'You have to choose. Are you going to be a disruptor or a keeper of the current culture?' And so when you think about what these women did, they were disruptors, because they no longer wanted to keep that current culture that really minimalized them as human beings.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  50:27  
And I don't think you even have to explicitly say, I want to keep the current culture. Doing nothing is also a vote on key culture. So there really is no choice. You have to make a choice.

Shannon Hammond  50:43  
And I think we have to break that, or at least in me, break that it's okay to be a disruptor. Like, you know, like you said, we were taught to sit there with our pretty bows on our head and not speak, to be a disruptor is to truly step out of the mold in which I was cast.

Marsha Clark  51:02  
And be uncomfortable. And in some cases, be at risk.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  51:07  
Yeah. Yes. So as we're coming full circle on this film, I want to talk just for a moment about the ending and the image of the dates scrolling across the screen showing when different countries gained the right to vote for women. What went through everyone's heads when you saw this list and the dates?

Shannon Hammond  51:27  
I sat there with my mouth opened and my hand on my heart. I can't believe this is recent. This is in my lifetime that people, or women, are just getting to vote.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  51:38  
In European countries, dates like 1957, 1970 something. It's like, what?

Shannon Hammond  51:47  
Well, and I think to myself, that's when they were...

Sherrie Salas  51:49  
I was waiting to say...

Shannon Hammond  51:52  
What about the ones that were not listed.

Sherrie Salas  51:55  
That's what I wanted. I was getting ready to add. And we all know those dates aren't really when they got to go vote. They just got the right to. The next was, I mean, think 1965, the Voting Act. I mean, that was crazy. You know, they had to walk across the bridge in Selma to be able to have no racism at the polls.

Marsha Clark  52:12  
And we're still trying to prevent certain classes of people to vote even when they have the right today.

Sherrie Salas  52:18  
Absolutely. So even though that's what I thought, Wendi. When I saw those dates scrolled, I wanted to know the next day that it actually became mundane for those people to actually have the vote because the dates are not the date that they got the vote.

Marsha Clark  52:32  
Well, and I want to say this a little bit of trivia for all of us. Up until the 1992 election here in the United States, the majority of women voted for the same candidate as their husband. And so, you know, now there's the Well, I'm not going to vote because my vote will just be canceled out. But our voices matter, ladies, and when you watch any of this true history, whether it be in the U.K. or the U.S. or all of these other countries, that didn't come without, you know, the disruption, breaking the glass literally and metaphorically. And I mean that it's too important not to be willing to take that stand. You know, also the thought that comes into my mind is that with the work of advocacy, and this idea of for freedom for all. And when I think about what we're seeing in our world today, these movies were set in time over 100 years ago. And Shannon, you said this happened in my lifetime. I couldn't get a credit card. I couldn't even, though I paid the money for my car, my father had to co-sign it because I was less than 21 years old. Now if I'd had a younger brother he could have signed for me.

Sherrie Salas  53:48  
I would have stayed in jail if I was born in those days. I know I would. I wouldn't have survived.

Marsha Clark  53:55  
And the outrage is what it takes. You know, the outrage is what it takes.

Sherrie Salas  54:00  
Maybe we should still be outraged today.

Marsha Clark  54:03  
Well,  I always have a simmering, you know, bit of rebellion, resentment, frustration, anger. I do. Absolutely.  Because it's everywhere if we're willing to open our eyes and pay attention.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  54:19  
Yeah, agreed. So movies like this really help us dig deeper into a topic, inspire us and maybe even offer up strategies for changing our own lives or communities around us. Not that the three of you need any additional inspiration or motivation to change the world around you, but I am curious how watching this film has shifted your perspective or maybe ignited or fanned a flame of change for you. I know for a fact that there are feet following all three of you. And what I want to know is where will you lead next or how might you lead differently as a result of what we learned in this movie?

Sherrie Salas  55:05  
For me, I mean, obviously just trying to do even more and be more vocal. There's definitely some marginalized groups in our community that are, have been decided and chosen as a political football. Um, it's sad we're here and I get mad, and I'm always beating myself up that I could and should be doing more. I don't know, I can't say anything specific. It's my nature that if nobody in the room is saying the right thing. Now we do live in the Frisco bubble. So I'm not exposed to as much. But I still always try and learn and be better. So at minimum, my vote can be responsible. And then I'm always trying. It's like, I'm going to. Trying to get people to vote is seriously one of my first passions.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  55:49  

Marsha Clark  55:50  
Because it's such a low turnout every time.

Sherrie Salas  55:51  
It's so important. And people think they're, I mean, I literally have that's my finger, by the way, local people. I have a post getting people to vote and it has my finger and it has a smiley face on it. It says your one vote counts. And I always share with people but it really does. Because collectively we can bring change.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  56:09  
Yep. Yep.

Marsha Clark  56:11  
Yes, each each voice matters and collectively, it can bring change.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  56:16  

Shannon Hammond  56:18  
I don't know that this has shifted my thinking. I know that in the past few years, I've just begun to listen to other voices. And I've learned a lot about patriarchy, slavery, the prison systems, LGBTQ history. I never knew there was a history with white women. You know, like I just, I just hadn't, I hadn't taken the time to listen and learn. And so I'm letting a lot of this ruminate and, and sit with me. One thing I do know is our culture needs leaders. And marginalized people need voices and we have to speak up for people that can't speak up or whose voices are not being heard. I do know that. I will say that, Wendi, just knowing you for a while, and your passion has always been to stick up for women. And I remember thinking over the last few years, 'Oh, that's great. Good for her. You know, yay.' And I kept thinking, why? You know, I didn't really know why because I just always thought well, things have been okay. And now this is like one more thing that I know I need to learn about, just reading or watching this movie, learning about it, listening to you all. I am just like, I can hardly wait to leave. I'm enjoying this, but I can hardly wait to leave and learn more about this. And just, there's so much more to learn.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  57:45  
Well, I forget the podcast episode number but again, I'm gonna put a big underline on Marsha mentioning the book "Cassandra Speaks" by Elizabeth Lesser, I want to say it was episode 8?

Marsha Clark  57:56  

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  57:56  
15. Okay. See, Marsha knows. I knew it was really early and was the first "On the Nightstand" episode. So everyone, if you haven't read it already, please read it. And so for me, between that book and now watching this movie, and this whole conversation, my, thank you, Shannon, for mentioning my, you know, fanning the flame. But for me it it really also started during COVID because all of these statistics came out about just the pure volume of overwhelm on especially working women and working mothers and if they were single moms and had two or three jobs and trying to keep children in school via a computer, like just the gigantic cluster that that toll was and weight on women and how, for me personally, how my reaction to that was to start a separate company around impacting women financially and helping them grow their wealth and investing in women business owners and making sure that you know because we're because the whole underlying thing of this movie is money, money and power and property ownership. And for everyone watching this movie, you really were hit in the face with the fact that as a wife and a mother you were property, the children were property in addition to the physical property of homes and whatever else, horses, and like you were the same thing as the cow in the yard. And that wasn't too long ago. It wasn't too long ago and it was completely a normal. Everyone accepted it, including the women. Here's the thought that I was going to have earlier.

Marsha Clark  59:49  
I love it. Come back.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  59:50  
There, it came out of my brain. More coffee. It's the fact that it was so interesting to me and this is going on today. How this, there's this whole other body of women who were anti-suffragists. Like, you know, we're watching this movie and we're like, of course the women want the vote. But then there was this huge community of women who didn't want it and constantly told Maud Watts to shut up and sit down. (Keepers of the current culture.) Keepers of the current culture.

Sherrie Salas  1:00:21  
I can speak to that. When I was younger, in college, I worked at a pharmacy and there was this client that came in and I called her by her name, and she corrected me you did not call her by her name. She was Mrs. So and So, her husband's last name, like she was not going to have it And she wasn't kind about educating me kind of tone, it was like, 'you need to know better' kind of tone. So I mean, that was then but it absolutely hasn't changed.

Marsha Clark  1:00:49  
Oh, it still happens. It still happens. And, it goes back to what is our identity. And for some women, it was to be a wife, to be a mother, to handle the domestic domicile, whatever that might be, and I love women who choose that for themselves. And I don't try to make one right or one wrong. Isn't it wonderful that we have a choice? That's your part to celebrate, in my humble opinion. And women doing this kind of work gave us a much wider range of choices for us to be involved and to create a world where we are part of it. You know, I go back to two quotes, ladies is 'When we know better, we do better". So this idea of educating ourselves, and all those around us, men and women, boys and girls, and sharing our stories to make sure that those are heard, to understand what our experience is like. And, you know, the other is that "If we're not going to tell our stories, who can?" So, it's related, but who is going to tell our story? And we've got to be able to be heard in a way. And this is the, you know, basic psychological need of being seen, heard and valued. When you can see us what, you know, we can. Remember when they were working to get in front, when the horrible horse, but how they were working to get in the front row so that, that's being seen. They wore their banners and carried their signs to be heard because their voices were often quieted so they had to do another way to be heard. And it was all in pursuit of being valued, being valued as human beings in whatever country it might be.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:02:33  
Yeah. So, as we wrap up, Shannon, Sherrie, this was an amazing time today and to get to talk with both of you about one of the things that we love here, women supporting women, advocacy, leadership, serving, all of it. So thank you both for being on the show today and adding so much heart and you know, and community.

Marsha Clark  1:02:56  
Well and I want to offer my thanks to you as well to get to know you a little bit in new and different ways. And I would love to be a part of any of those circles where you're getting women together, or girls together to talk differently. You know, I often think about if you look at nonprofits, and you want to support women, there's sex trafficking, there's domestic abuse, there's educational scholarship kinds of programs, if you're the first in your family to ever go to college and nobody can help you through that process, because they don't know it. I look at all the nonprofits that are often about underrepresented groups. I mean, if you think about education, it's dominated by women. Many of the people leading those school systems are men but dominated by staffs of female teachers.

Sherrie Salas  1:03:42  
You're gonna make me cry.

Marsha Clark  1:03:43  
Well, it's real, right? I mean, you've got to know the facts.

Sherrie Salas  1:03:47  
Education is a passion for me.

Marsha Clark  1:03:48  
Education, health care. In the time since I started this program, there's been much more research done on women, because they just would put all the men in there and think that we women responded the same way. And now we know that women present with heart attacks differently than men, and, you know, all of those kinds of things. And so because men fund the for profit, and women support the underrepresented in enormously bigger numbers. And, you know, my wish for all of our listeners is to say, that's the way things are gonna get changed is to get engaged and get involved in. And you know, this is our month of July 4, and Independence Day and the freedoms that we have in our country and those that we're still striving to achieve. Because it's not equitable. I was one of those, you know, women in the 70's and 60's that was out marching and protesting, and I still do that today. And you can't give it up. You can't give up because it's fragile. It's so fragile.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:04:50  
So, Shannon, Sherrie, again, thank you both for joining us today.

Shannon Hammond  1:04:54  
Thank you so much for having me.

Sherrie Salas  1:04:55  
Thank you for allowing us to be here.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:04:57  
And thank you, listeners, for joining us on our journey of authentic, powerful leadership. Please continue to download, subscribe and share this podcast from wherever you like to listen. I hope that you've gotten as much out of this today as I have. if you just got a fraction out of this, that I did today, this was truly an exceptional conversation. Share it with your daughters, with your nieces. Share it with the next generation. Marsha, I'll let you close us out.

Marsha Clark  1:05:24  
Yeah, I you know, I just again, near and dear to my heart, social justice warrior, we have to be there not only to support other women, but also to stand up and speak up on behalf of ourselves. And that's not bad girl behavior.

Sherrie Salas  1:05:38  
Oh, I like that. That's not bad girl behavior.

Marsha Clark  1:05:43  
That is stand up, speak up. And and it takes courage. It's hard. It's really hard, especially when you've been conditioned as many of us have through literature, through institutions or schools, through places of faith, through the workplace, through parental patriarchy. I mean, all of those things, there are so many things that are working on us to create a different outcome for us and not necessarily the one we want. And I dare say to our listeners, I'm not here to tell you what you should think or believe politically or belief principle or anything else. Whatever you do, believe in stand up for it, have the facts and yet be open to hearing another side without immediately dismissing it. And so, Wendi, I'll leave our listeners today and we would love to hear from you, by the way, if you have thoughts or even ideas about additional information we can share or future podcasts. But you know, here's to women standing up for themselves and for girls. And "Here's to women supporting women!"

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