Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:10  
Welcome to "Your Authentic Path to Powerful Leadership" with Marsha Clark. Join us on this journey where we uncover what it takes to be a powerful woman leader. Well Marsha, welcome back to the second episode in our three part series on Managing Your Career with Intentionality. In today's episode, we're focusing on the power of potential. I love this.

Marsha Clark  0:36  
Yes, Wendi, thank you and I should say welcome back to you, too. So, we are being very intentional these first few weeks of the new year as we explore these topics around managing our careers more deliberately and more strategically. For our listeners, last week, we dug into the myth of the ideal worker and examined some of the career strategies of high potential employees, including how people intentionally scan for opportunities both internal to their current organizations and externally in the marketplace. And this week we're sharing with our listeners what many consider to be some inside information, the kind of the secrets behind the scenes of developing high potential talent. And our primary source for today's episode comes from Korn Ferry. For our listeners, let me describe who Korn Ferry is. They're a global organizational consulting firm and they focus on five core areas. So organization strategy, assessment and succession, talent acquisition, leadership and professional development and total rewards. And I've used their research and their tools, their books for years, and I think they're one of the best at what they do.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:51  
I totally agree. I mean, I've known of Korn Ferry since I graduated college. Great place. So I know we shared the definition of what high potential meant last week, but let's do that again here to to kind of set the stage for today's content.

Marsha Clark  2:07  
Yeah. So last week, I shared a definition from the organization DDI who does a lot of work in that area. And this week, I'm going to use Korn Ferry's definition since we're focusing on their approach. They're similar but slightly different. So Korn Ferry defines potential as the possibility that individuals have the qualities to effectively perform and advance in their careers. It implies further growth and development to reach some desired state.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  2:39  
Okay, so the high potential talent is somebody who has the likelihood and ability to accelerate their growth and to rapidly develop towards some future leadership role. Right? Okay. So does every company have some kind of formal high potential development program?

Marsha Clark  3:00  
Well, the reality is that only about half of the companies report having a high potential Identification Program and I would say, a formal one, because there there may be in someone's head. They have ideas about it or they talk about it periodically. But those companies who do also tell us or tell Korn Ferry that they use past performance to determine future potential. So nearly 40% of internal job moves made by people identified as high potentials, or HIPOs, end in failure. So get that. 4 out of 10. And only about 30% of high performers should be classified as high potential. So I want you to get that.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  3:53  
I have this look on my face of what??

Marsha Clark  3:55  
Yeah, exactly. But There's long been this belief of the best predictor of future performance is past performance. And I'll talk more about that in just a minute.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:04  
Yes. And because we need to break this down. Because only about half of the companies in the study had high potential identification programs in the first place. (Right.) So has that been your experience also, with your program participants and the people you coach?

Marsha Clark  4:22  
Well, in my experience, the larger companies that are growing, right, they are on a growth trajectory, typically have one and it's pretty structured and managed very intentionally. But you know, if you're a smaller company or a mid sized company and you're in turnaround mode or something like that, as we know, the answer to every leadership question is, it depends. So, but what I can say is that larger companies that are experiencing growth tend to have more formal programs.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:51  
Because they have the resources to think about it and put it together. If you're a startup or you know, yeah, that's just not, you're not gonna, you're thinking about getting the product out in the market. So and then you also said something about how companies actually identify those people based on their performance. Let's talk about that.

Marsha Clark  5:12  
Yeah, so I'll repeat what I said a moment ago. Most companies use past performance to determine future potential.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  5:21  
And is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Marsha Clark  5:24  
Well, past performance is an indicator, not a potential, it's an indicator of future performance if you're performing the same job.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  5:35  
Yes, and that's a key point.

Marsha Clark  5:37  
That is a very key point. So how expertise as an individual contributor doesn't equate to success as a manager or director or whatever, is the old adage of What Got You Here Won't Get You There kind of message. And it goes back to only about 30% of high performers should be classified as high potentials. And so think about the idea of if 40% are identified as high potentials. Let's just think about most of the bell shaped curve, if people have forced distributions, you know, that if you've got a five point scale for your performance reviews, and you know, one is excellent, and you know, exceeds or something like that, right, so about 20% fall into the top performer category. (Right.) That's performance in their current roles. If only about 30% are also high potential, really only about 6% of your top performers are high potentials.  So think about the difference in that, the 40% that was identified and now the in that fail. I mean, this really gets into a circular, but it's a math thing, right? But you got to define them and identify them in the right way. And so I'm sure that many of our listeners know that just because you're a great individual contributor, whether you're an engineer and analyst and accountant, a marketer or whatever, it doesn't mean you're going to be great at the next level, right, a great manager or leader. And there are very different attributes that describe a high potential as compared to a high performer. And so, you know, again, going back to that about 20% of your employees are high performers. And if 30% of your high performers are also high potentials, you really only have about a 6% of your population you're working with.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  7:31  
Okay, so that totally makes sense that you're refining it down even more. And I love that you're making a distinction between high potential and high performance. (Right.) So didn't you also have another statistic in there about how many people end up failing as high potentials?

Marsha Clark  7:51  
Yes. So nearly 40% of internal job moves made by people identified as HIPOs end in failure. And it makes sense that people would struggle if they've been misidentified, or classified, however, you want to think about it as a high potential leader based on their performance. So no matter how stellar they might have been as an engineer, it's a whole different skill set to be an engineering leader or a whole different profile to be considered a high potential.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  8:21  
Yes, exactly. So we talked last week about some of the career strategies for high potentials, but what are some of the actual characteristics of somebody who is a high potential? So what are leaders in organizations looking for when they're trying to figure out who has high potential?

Marsha Clark  8:42  
Yeah, so this is another one of those, if our listeners have a notebook or notepad or something by them they may want to list this, seven distinct aspects that Korn Ferry's research has flagged for leaders or organizations to pay attention to as they are trying to identify their high potentials. The first one is cognitive skills, and that includes conceptual or strategic thinking, a breadth of thinking, which I often think of his perspective, cognitive ability, just the ability to process and analyze information, and then dealing with ambiguity, the paradox, the contradiction, the gray if you will. So those are all in the area of cognitive skills. The second is personality variables, which include interpersonal skills, dominance, I want to be really clear, not dominating, but dominance in that I am willing to step up and speak up stability, I'm not a volatile personality, right um, steady and predictable, resilience, I've got that bounce back factor and then maturity that I don't go off the deep end or you know, hyperventilate or you know, have lots of drama. So that's the personality one. The third one of my favorite is learning ability, and this includes adaptability to the situation of whatever's happening, learning orientation, do I have lots of resources available to me and am I a natural learner? The learning agility which is what'd you do, what did you learn and how will it help you going forward? Right? And then openness to feedback as a way of knowing how I'm showing up, right? Okay. And then the fourth is leadership skills. And this is the ability to develop others, leading and managing others and influencing and inspiring. Five is motivation variables, includes energy engagement, drive for advanced advancement, do I want to take on more, career drive interests, career aspirations, results orientation and some risk taking. And then the sixth is performance record and this includes what kind of leadership experiences I've had and what is my performance track record. And then last is knowledge and values. And that really includes, am I a good cultural fit and do I have the technical functional skills and knowledge for whatever it is I'm going to do?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  11:20  
Okay, so this is a pretty comprehensive list. And you mentioned that people's past performance as an individual contributor doesn't predict future success as a manager. And I think we all probably have worked for or with some of those people who get promoted based on, say, their technical expertise, but they didn't know how to lead or they weren't prepared to lead. So there really is a difference, isn't there, of the skills and requirements that you have to have and shift into as you move into leadership, even if you just move up one level. Right?

Marsha Clark  11:57  
That's right. That's right. So I'm going to try to talk our leaders and describe this visual again. And we will have this available on the transcript on the website. And it is a continuum that goes from left to right. So if I'm on the left, one box is individual contributor. The box next to that, moving to the right, is frontline manager, so a supervisor, a team leader, whatever that might be called in your organization, but frontline manager. Then I move to manager of managers, that's another sort of threshold and, you know, advancing your career. Then comes business unit leader, where I'm managing not just a group of people and a function, but multiple functions. Then a senior executive, where I'm now moving into more of the strategic view. And then the chief executive or the C Suite, if you will. So we've gone from individual contributor, frontline manager, manager of managers, business unit leaders, senior executive, chief executive, some big companies have much more levels than this but this is generally the category. If you think about individual contributor and frontline manager, that's where technical skills are most important. I'm still going to spend the majority of my time doing the work, whatever the work is, accounting, marketing, engineering, you know, architecting, whatever. The manager of managers, and the business unit leaders are focused on developing their leadership and management skills. So now I'm getting beyond technical to leadership and management. And then when I'm in the senior executive and the chief executive, I'm really operating in the realms of strategy and strong business acumen. So if you kind of look at that there's a multitude of things that take you again from left of the continuum individual contributor to right of the continuum chief executive. So in the individual contributor, I'm looking at short term. As a chief executive, I'm looking at long term. If I'm an individual contributor, that end, it's limited stakeholders that I'm serving, whereas as chief executive I have multiple stakeholders. I have the board, I have the market, I have, you know, regulators, I have all of that. In the left hand side is individual contributor and frontline manager. I'm managing tasks, the work itself. As I move up into the senior levels, I'm managing a portfolio. There's all kinds of things that have to come together. As an individual contributor, it's my job to get the job done. As a chief executive, it's my job to maximize shareholder value. Much of the work as an individual contributor is transactional, much of the work of the chief executive is transformational. And as an individual contributor, I'm managing one's self, myself. As a chief executive, I'm managing the enterprise. So you can see the path there is different. I've got to build different skills as I go from one to the next to the next. (Absolutely.) And my responsibilities are different, and therefore the skills needed to perform those responsibilities are different.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  15:36  
Yeah. And another thing that's striking me as I look at this graph, this image, the technical is kind of the how, like, it's the how of the enterprise, the management is the what, like what needs to happen, and that and then, at the very right, the strategic side is the why, why are we doing this? What you know, what's the big vision, all of that. I don't know, that just kind of hit me. (I love that.) It seems to move through that continuum as well. So is there anything else that leaders need to be on the lookout for as they are trying to identify possible high potentials in their organization?

Marsha Clark  16:16  
Yeah, Korn Ferry has pulled together what they call seven sign posts for potential. And I find it helpful when I'm working with groups who want to increase their odds of success when they're tapping into that potential of future leaders. And the seven signposts are, and again, we'll have some additional information on these on the website. The first one is drivers, they have the drive and motivation to serve as a leader. The word ambition I think, is another sort of similar word in this. And it's the yes, I want to be a leader, I want to take on more responsibility. The second signpost is awareness, their self awareness of strengths as well as their developmental needs. The third is capacity and this is the aptitude for logic and reasoning. So it gets back to those cognitive skills. The derailment risks, what are those things that can knock me off track, if you will, on this path to bigger responsibilities and leadership. The fourth is experience and that's really a track record of formative experiences. And I'm going to share those some of those with the listeners today. The learning agility, and this is the ability to learn from experience. And for longtime listeners, they've heard me say this before, but I use these questions often asking yourself every Friday or at the end of the month, or whatever period works for you, what did I do, what did I learn and how will that help me going forward? And then the leadership traits associated with advancement, and typically, most companies who have a more formal or structured high potential program, they also have a profile of what they want a leader to be. So whatever those attributes might be, they're looking for the fit or the match with that.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  18:13  
Okay, so these seven signposts sound really interesting and worthy of you diving a little deeper into what each of these looks like.

Marsha Clark  18:22  
With drivers. There's the advancement drive, which is the drive to advance through collaboration, ambition, and challenge. So give me those high, you know, visibility kinds of jobs. Career planning, how narrowly or broadly focused are ones career goals and how specific is their plan, which is what we're trying to do here, Wendi, is to say get intentional. So then the third under driver is role preference. So preference for the work of roles requiring, whether it be versatility and achievement through others versus personal mastery and expertise. So, you know, I worked in a technology company where we ended up having there were great technologists who we wanted to reward with advancement in their careers, but we didn't, they didn't want to lead people. So that was mastery, and expertise, not leader of people. (Got it.) Okay. Then under experience, there's core experience what they've learned what a person has learned in his or her day to day leadership experience. The always my favorite perspective, you know, can I understand and see what's happening across organizations, industries, functional areas, even countries, how broad is my perspective and understanding how it all fits together. Then what are some key challenges that I've had regarding have I had to deal with difficult situations have I had to do things that were hard? You know, when I when I think about key checks challenges and that comes to some of those formative experiences I'm going to talk about here in a moment. And then under that awareness, self awareness is the extent to which I know my own strengths and my development needs. But there's also situational self awareness, which is the extent to which a leader is able to monitor and be aware of how things are impacting them and how their behavior or performance is impacting the situation. And then the learning agility that Korn Ferry uses, they look at mental agility, the tendency to be inquisitive, and mentally quick. They look at people agility, which is a leaders ability to read others and apply those insights gained in people related matters, change agility, looking at the tendency to promote new possibilities, take ideas from vision to reality. And then results agility, which is the propensity to deliver outstanding results in new and tough situations. And, you know, the definition that I like of learning agility from Korn Ferry is the willingness and ability to learn from experience and subsequently apply that learning to perform successfully under new or first time conditions.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  18:31  
Okay.

Marsha Clark  18:50  
So I said, I wanted to talk a little bit about these key formative experiences. So here's why this list is so important. In my mind, the more of these key development experiences a leader has or accumulates over time, the greater the possibility that the leader will be successful after being promoted to the next level.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  21:48  
Got it. That makes sense.

Marsha Clark  21:49  
So this increases my probability of success. So the first one is critical negotiations. And you know, this can, what I also like about this is it's not a job title. I can get these formative experiences in a multitude of roles, which says I need to be more open as I'm managing my career. So critical negotiations, it can be a contract negotiations with a customer, it can be vendor negotiations to provide for them to provide a service or product to your company. And I have to tell this little side story. So in one of our programs, I had a woman who said, came back into the class, and she was saying, I'm so proud, I just negotiated my first million dollar contract, and the class claps and goes, Yeah, you know, critical negotiation, big, big dollar item. And we get, you know, what people were checking in, and they, they would get about halfway through the circle. And another one that says, you know, says to the woman, I love that you got that million dollar, I just want the group to know, I just did my first billion dollar negotiation, because she buys fuel for American Airlines. I mean, critical negotiations is relative is the point I want to make here. And a million dollar deal in this woman's organization was a big deal, a billion dollars over here was a big deal. So just because you got to a million you don't get to check this off. Depends on the situation, right? So I have to come in and fix inherited problems and challenges. So I'm coming into an organization and it's my job to fix it. Having external relations, that can be with customers, that can be with regulators, that can be with the government, the press, it can be any of that. The downturn or failures inside markets, I've got to be able to turn that around. Crisis management, what I have said that everyone gets to check this box that was a leader during the time of pandemic, because it was a crisis like no other with no best practices or best in class. (That's right.) And if you're looking at business growth, I mean, it has inherent problems everywhere. Are we in the right places? Are we allocating resources appropriately? Do we have enough people? It's the kind of problem I want to have, I'd rather have a growth problem than a downturn problem. Yes. And yet, there's still challenges associated with that. And then starting up something and it doesn't have to be an entrepreneurial, you know, startup business in that regard. I can start a new division, I can start a new product line, I can start something new internal to my company. Product development from ideation to implementation, and then some sort of international or cross cultural assignment. So if you look at these nine formative experiences, what I encourage our listeners to do is which one of these have you had? (Right.) And as you think about next role, which one do you need that can help you broaden your perspective and gain these formative experiences on which to build as you continue to advance your career.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  21:51  
I would also offer to our listeners that you keep track of this list and work this list into when you are going through the negotiation for your promotion or your raise or whatever that you point out that you've hit all nine of these.

Marsha Clark  25:16  
Well, that's right. And and I might take a lateral move instead of a vertical move in order to get one of these because I need that in order to make the next vertical move. So the old career, you know, jungle gym, not the career ladder, if you will. (Yeah.) And the other thing I want to say to our listeners is, there's no order in which you have to get these. (That's a great point.) So if I can look then at a wider range of opportunities versus I have to get that next job to then get that next job. There's not that next job. I mean, you can pull all this together when it's all said and done, if you have all of these. Now I see how it all fits together. So then the next signposts on leadership traits, they talk about focus, which is the balance between attending to details and keeping an eye on the big picture. I've often said, and I learned this a long time ago, long before I saw this research, but it's like a microscope on one eye to see the detail and a telescope on the other eye to see the longer term. Persistence. You know, that pursuit of you know, the achieving the valued long term goals, the tolerance of ambiguity to deal effectively with the uncertainty or those gray and confusing situations. Assertiveness, the willingness to assume a leader role and being comfortable in that leadership role. And then optimism, you know, leaders tendency to have a positive outlook to be the we got this, we can make this happen. And then problem solving capacity. And this is another one that I usually spend quite a bit of time on when I'm teaching, that capacity refers to logic and reasoning, or cognitive ability, which influences virtually every aspect of job performance and potential. High performing leaders are effective analytical and conceptual thinkers, they're astute at spotting trends or patterns that others might miss. They solve problems, first individually and then as leaders by marshaling and focusing resources on the right challenges. And here's what I want our listeners to pay attention to. Beware of the subtle trap here. As one moves up in leadership, a person's role changes from being a primary problem solver, being the one who solves it, to ensuring that the problem gets solved, not with hands on application by me, but with proper allocation of resources, people assignments, and proper checks and balances. This to me is one of the biggest traps. And in some companies, it's when you go from senior manager to director. For others, it's going from director to VP but know where, be very mindful of where it shifts from, it's my job to solve the problem to it's my job to say that the problem gets solved. And leaders who cannot make that shift will struggle ever getting beyond the mid level leadership kinds of roles.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  28:28  
And I think this is the biggest thing that holds women back (I do too) because we have to have our hands on it. Nobody can make the pasta better than we can, right. So we get in there and fix it and do the thing. We don't like it, we don't enjoy it. We probably mentally complain about it, or we go home and we complain to our spouse about it. (Yep.) But I really think that gaining that skill to effectively delegate to your team and give them leadership development growth by having them figure it out, not that you just, you know, wash your hands of it. You stay engaged, but you do checks and balances.

Marsha Clark  29:12  
Yes. I mean, are we making the progress we think we need to make? Do I need to coach you on how to solve the problem, but I'm coaching you, I'm not getting in and doing it myself.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  29:24  
And I think it's also important that you share with your boss the fact that you are doing this. You have delegated this to Steve and to Jane and to whoever, but that you are checking in and you're checking on their progress and reassure your boss that you know, it's gonna get done and it will be done wonderfully. But it's also a signal to him that you're not doing it, or her or her whoever your boss is, you know, that you're, you're acting like a leader in that way.

Marsha Clark  29:56  
Right. That's right. And I'll tell you who else is a watch out for. If you have problem solving or responsibility as one of your top five strengths, you also get very caught up in this, sucked into it. (Yeah, yeah.) So those are watch outs for all around. And then the last on the signpost was the derailment risk, we were going to talk about that more. And here are the three highest derailers. One is being volatile. And it's this risk towards being mercurial, erratic or unpredictable. So here's what I call is the lay language. Well, Wendi's Wendi's one of these mercurial, you know, erratic and unpredictable. I wonder if she's going to be Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde today? So yeah, you know, is the boss gonna be in a good mood, or is boss gonna be in a bad mood? Is the boss gonna be a micromanager today is are you going to be a hands off manager? You know, that inconsistency, and we talk a lot about that in the trust building, right? It doesn't build trust when I can't predict or rely on you in any kind of consistent way. The second one is micromanaging and it's the risk of controlling the work of your direct reports. Give them as much latitude as you can, have appropriate checks and balances, delegate appropriately. And then the third derailer is being closed. It's about being closed to alternative perspectives, possibilities and opportunity. So it's the, we can't do that here, we've tried that and it doesn't work. No, just do it the way I told you to, or this is the way it's always been done, you know, those antiquated kinds of policies and practices and processes that can get us in trouble.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  31:44  
Yeah. And we talked about this last week. But I think it's probably just as important and relevant this week as well. What advice would you give our listeners on what they can do or need to do with all of this great information on the characteristics and those seven signposts for potential?

Marsha Clark  32:04  
Well, so there are a couple of ways to use the information. So one is assess yourself against the characteristics of a high potential. So how do you stack up against that, and you can either even gather input from others as to how you're showing up to them as it relates to those characteristics. And then determine if there are some developmental opportunities to build on those characteristics. And then second, I really want to encourage our listeners to pay attention to those key formative career experiences, the ones on critical negotiations and inherited problems and challenges, the ones that we went through, check off those experiences you have and as you consider future opportunities, again, remember there's no particular sequence on those and take into account where you can get one of these key formative experiences. And pursue those roles. It is a bit of a, I call it a bingo card, right? If I put if I put these on a bingo card, I can, you know, declare bingo at some point, right, and encourage our listeners to be keenly aware of what they've learned from each of the key experiences. So when you think about this, if I'm on with an application, or you know, in an interview, use the language of high potential, whether it be the characteristics, or whether it be those formative experiences. And always make sure you have an example or a story to back up what you're saying, because anybody can read the words and say, I'm a this or I'm a that or I've done this or that. But you got to have an example, and talk about what you learned through that example. You know, and the last one that I just can't stress enough is, as your role changes, you move from being a primary problem solver to ensuring that the problem gets solved. And in my experience in the work that I do with women, I don't care if we've talked about it, then all of a sudden, something happens and they go, oooh, this is that example. (Right. Right.) And so I think it's one of the hardest transitions to make. So I encourage you to to keep it top of mind. And one resource that I want to share with our listeners is Korn Ferry has what they call the FYI for your improvement book. And it is one of the richest resources to be talking about leadership competencies, the profile, the developmental opportunities of each of those competencies, and they have 38 different ones. They talk about career stoppers, installers, and it's available at KornFerry.com. And I want to say it's, it cost about $95. I know that's an expensive book, and yet, I will tell you, I have several editions because they've gone from you know, first like eighth edition And I've had people come into my classes that had older versions of it and they're as dog eared as can be because they've used it so many times. So I'll call it, for those of our listeners who remember the Encyclopedia Britannica, it is like the Encyclopedia of leadership identification and development. So I think it's a great resource for individuals as well as companies to have available to their leaders.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  35:26  
So do you think or do you know, have they updated the latest edition since the pandemic or is it more...

Marsha Clark  35:35  
Ah, I don't know that. I don't know that. I know that where I get the information like dealing with ambiguity, learning agility, and resilience are the three most sought after leadership competencies comes from Korn Ferry research. And when I think about those three things, I can't imagine anything being more pertinent you know, post COVID, or in COVID, or whatever.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  36:01  
Okay, so, after we finish recording this episode, I'm gonna go to Amazon and we'll have it in the show notes transcript, and we'll make sure and put what edition is listed. So I feel like I've had my own awesome little career coaching session here. So Marsha, thank you for walking us through all of this fascinating insider scoop of what it looks like to be a high potential employee. And since you've already shared some advice for everyone, instead of your top two or three takeaways, what would you say is your own personal favorite thing about presenting this information to a group or to your clients? Like  what's the most rewarding?

Marsha Clark  36:46  
So you know, many of my clients are amazing, high achievers. So, I mean, that's why they get sent to programs because their companies are investing in them. And they're so busy getting results and advocating on behalf of others that they almost forget about managing their own careers. And so, what I am trying to do with all the things we're talking about in this three part series, is to give women a framework to think about their careers in a thoughtful, deliberate, intentional way, and to give them the language to talk about their accomplishments in pursuit of that next great opportunity. So as I said earlier, there are too many times and one of my standard questions, and what I call my intake conversation with new coaching clients, is where do you see yourself in three to five years, and I just can't tell you how vague women tend to be. And I want us to get more thoughtful and intentional because I think when we set our minds to something, we are going to make it happen. And so that's the part that I love sharing this information. And women who are high performers and high potential, they're movers and shakers. And so being able to deliberately move to something, I think allows for greater possibilities.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  38:09  
Allows for greater possibilities. I love that. Love that. Yes. Well, thank you all, listeners, for joining us today on our journey of authentic, powerful leadership. Please download, subscribe and share this podcast. And again, listen to it again, probably with a notepad and a pen. And visit Marsha's website at marshaclarkandassociates.com for links to the tools we talked about today, other resources, subscribe to her email list and get her book if you haven't gotten her book yet. I know I say it every week but please get her book, "Embracing Your Power". And Marsha, I'll let you close this out.

Marsha Clark  38:53  
All right. Well, thank you, Wendi, once again. And you know, for our listeners, if you are seriously on your own career journey and you want to be thoughtful and intentional, you know, as Wendi said, take advantage of this information. And if there's anything we can do to help you let us know that. I don't claim to be a career coach. I do know that I've worked with a lot of women through transitions. And I want us sitting at the tables where the big decisions are getting made. I want us to have that influence and that impact because I think the decisions and the ideas and the strategies will be much stronger. So use this for yourself, use this with your team, use this with other women in your network or in your family. Use it broad and wide. And so thank you for being a part of our episode today. And as always, "Here's to women supporting women!"

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