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Podcast Transcript

Know Love and Trust

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:10  
Welcome to "Your Authentic Path To Powerful Leadership" with Marsha Clark! Join us on this journey where we uncover what it takes to be a powerful woman leader.

Marsha, welcome this week! Back again! And this week, we are exploring a very timely topic. Love.

Marsha Clark  0:31  

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:32  
Marsha. I know I've said before that there are a few keywords that jumped out at me when I think of you. One being power, of course, and another is authentic. But one that we haven't really talked about specifically is love. And that's a big one, you lead with love. And that's probably one of your qualities that's most admirable. And I know it's also why so many people love working with you. It's really a key theme for you.

Marsha Clark  1:01  
Oh, wow! Thank you, Wendi. I will tell you love is definitely a key theme for me. You're right. And it's one of those values that I hold dear. And that I've used pretty much my entire career to help guide me as I make significant decisions. And that's really where the name of today's podcast comes from. I deliberately choose to surround myself with people I know, love, and trust. And I think it's one of the primary reasons that I've enjoyed success in my career and in my life. And it's and it's why so many of my colleagues and my clients become my friends. And so today we're going to explore some some of the aspects of what goes into building a powerful, strong, highly effective team of trusted colleagues. And you know, dear and treasured friends,

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:47  
Exactly. I distinctly remember the first time I heard you use the phrase "know, love and trust." It was the first or second day of the Power Of Self program, and you were introducing one of the guest instructors to the class. And instead of immediately launching into her bio or her credentials, you said, "She is a part of a special circle of people that I call my know, love, and trust group." And I immediately felt this big sense of FOMO because I wanted to be that to somebody. I wanted to be in somebody's know, love, and trust group! And I wasn't even sure what that was!

Marsha Clark  2:26  
Well, I I'm sorry, that you felt that you had that "fear of missing out," because it's certainly not intended to be exclusionary. But, you know, you probably aren't the only one who feels that need for that connection, or that longing to be part of a group or a team that's described in that way. Know, love, and trust are powerful words. And, it's been, I would call it my barometer or my metric for how I have made lots of choices on who I'm going to go to work with. And you know, who I'm going to bring with me and how I'm going to go into work for decades. And it didn't start out that way. But it certainly has evolved over the years as I became clearer and clearer on the kind of team I wanted to build in the kind of working environment that I wanted to create and sustain.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  3:13  
So know, love, and trust is definitely an unconventional metric to... For sure. I mean, at least in the businesses that I'm familiar with. So how did that evolve for you? And how can our listeners replicate that kind of team environment and commitment it for themselves?

Marsha Clark  3:33  
You know, Wendi, I love the question because I've used that phrase for years, but no one's ever really asked me how it got started. I did give some thought to this. And to be honest, I think it really just ties back to my personal values. You know, and it's been important to me for all of my life. And you know, certainly I brought it to work and it just aligned with my values. I love people. I love getting to know people. I love supporting people. I just... I'm a... I don't know, curious, researcher, collaborative.... My heart is with people. And that's I think my heart is where my love resides.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:14  
Right. So in what way? Were your personal values driving how you set up your teams?

Marsha Clark  4:21  
Yeah. So more great questions. I think I did so much intuitively that now to think about "how did that work?" For me, and this feels a little bit like you're coaching me, I can't coach a conversation on where did this come from. So I think there were two factors at play in reality, and one was my desire to be surrounded by people I could trust. So that trust piece was the outcome. So my my personal value of high trust was definitely driving my behaviors. And I was incredibly fortunate pretty early on in my leadership career that I'd earned the trust of my leaders who gave me the freedom to then if you will hand select some of my inner circle on my teams, it really was, wherever I went, I would go get these people, you know, identified, you know, some a handful of really competent, confident collaborative people who were critical thinkers incredibly talented. And I basically recruited them to follow me from one role and division and team to another. And as my career took off, I knew I could give them pretty much any assignment. And with little to no intervention for me, they would take off and make things happen. And, you know, I was often brought into startup something or fix something. So there was a lot to do. And I needed people who were independent, and that, again, I had high trust with, and I trusted their competence, their commitment, their integrity. They were, they were the rock stars!

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  5:48  
Okay, so you started this band of rock stars, and basically you toured the company with them.

Marsha Clark  5:54  
That's really true. It's pretty much what we did. And, here's the thing, because we were honest with each other. And we had such a strong foundation of mutual respect and trust, when they wanted or needed to go explore other parts of the company for their own development or growth opportunities that could easily take off on their own adventures with really zero guilt or any hard feelings, because I love them. And I wanted them to be happy and successful. But all it would take is one phone call when any of us needed the other, and we'd be back together supporting each other, getting the band back together. Right? Yes, this metaphor really works doesn't it? And just like bands that have gelled and really play well together, make beautiful music, it took no time at all to pick up just where we'd left off and create some incredible results. And, you know, Wendi, I'll tell you I think about this. I have a group of my, you know, junior high, elementary school, high school friends, and we still get back together. And it's, it's as true there as it is for my work group experience.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  6:57  
Exactly. So it had to be more than just luck that created this great group of rockstars. In your know, love, and trust group, did you have some kind of model or methodology that you use to find these people and build your team?

Marsha Clark  7:13  
Well, it was more than luck. You know, I'm a, there's a quote by Gary Player, who's a South African golfer. And he said, "The harder you work, the luckier you get." And I kind of believe more than that, that you create your luck, but at the time, I really didn't have a model. And, and I've discovered one, sort of in retrospect, that I will share with our listeners. But in the beginning, I think I was pretty much operating off of my instinct, and maybe some best practices I've picked up along the way. But I do think it was really born in deeply in my values.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  7:49  
Okay, so let's break down this mantra of know, love, and trust and dig into this model. Does one come first? Like, is there an order to building this rockstar team step by step?

Marsha Clark  8:02  
Well, I don't know about a specific order. But here's what I want to say that it started with, for me was this acronym "K-Y-P."

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  8:12  
Okay, K Y P. What does that stand for?

Marsha Clark  8:14  
It stands for "Know Your People." And it's an acronym that was pretty famous throughout EDS for lots of decades. And for listeners who may not have heard some of the previous episodes, EDS or Electronic Data Systems, it was the Fortune 50 Information Technology outsourcing company based in Dallas where I really got my start and built my career. And EDS was very well known for its development programs, including some really powerful leadership training. And K Y P was a cornerstone philosophy at EDS. Great leaders knew their people.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  8:51  
Ah, so know love and trust starts with know your people. What are some concrete examples of what leaders can do to get to know their people better?

Marsha Clark  9:00  
Well, you know, it includes some of the obvious work stuff that knowing their strengths and talents, their background skills, areas of expertise, and that, you know, they're bringing to their current role or may have used in previous roles. And it's also knowing their career aspirations and, perhaps more importantly, the why behind those aspirations. So sometimes, as a leader, someone might share with you a career goal that seems pretty, I don't know, academic, or by the book, if you will. And you know, for example, someone's currently an individual contributor in customer support. And when you ask them, what their career goal is, or where they see themselves is in three to five years, they'll likely say to be a manager in customer support. And, you know, technically you could stop there and you could check that box and say, "Okay, I've had that conversation." But if I really want to know my people... Evie wants to be a manager. Okay. But I want to know, "WHY does Evie want to be a manager? What is that going to do for her? How does becoming a manager align with our values? How does it call out or call upon her greatest strengths? In what ways? Will it challenge her? What do I know about her personality style, her approach to work, to conflict, to team dynamics that might help me coach and direct her to help her achieve that next career step?"

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  10:21  
Yeah. So this level of knowing your people goes way beyond the superficial awareness of just the typical performance evaluation...

Marsha Clark  10:30  
Oh, absolutely. This isn't just again, about checking boxes. This is about it's a much deeper thing. And you asked a minute ago about some concrete steps and for getting to know your people. So here's what I'd say... Know their WHYs. (w-h-y-s) Know what their top values are, and what drives them. Know their strengths, and not just what you see on a daily basis, or think they are. You may have a blind spot when it comes to their strengths, or even their gaps for that matter. And maybe you want to use an assessment to get some clarity on some things, then invest in one or two of those. And, you know, if you don't, aren't aware of that, what those might be check with your human resources department or your training group to see what they might recommend, or maybe already have licenses to use. And then a third thing would be knowing their personality style and how best to connect with them. I can't tell you how often I hear leaders - really kind hearted, well-intentioned leaders - say, "I treat people like I want to be treated." As if that is the gold standard for leading people. You know, the Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." But I want to push that a little further.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  11:41  
Okay, so, if treating people like I want to be treated is a problem. Why? Like if that, if that's not it... Like, why is that a problem?

Marsha Clark  11:51  
Yeah. So the key here is how "I" want to be treated. Really is MY view of the world. MY values. MY personal... MY goals, and so on. And odds are very high that you have different drivers and a different style. And, you know, as I mentioned, the "Do unto others" as the Golden Rule. Well, there's a Platinum Rule which is, "Do unto others as they would have you do unto them." Right? So it's not about me. It puts them in the in the driver's seat, if you will. And so, here's a perfect example. When he earlier you said you felt FOMO that "fear of missing out" when I first use the phrase - know, love, and trust - you know, in the class. And I can promise you that there were other women in that room and people listening today who did not have that same initial FOMO feeling because we're all different with different aspirations and motivations. And for me to assume that I that somehow I know how you want to be treated with a high desire to be included is the same for you. It could be opposite of knowing your people. It's "I don't want to project my stuff on to my people, my team members, my friends... " and so on. And to be honest, it's not very respectful and not an effective way to build trust with a group.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  13:13  
You're reminding me of our previous episode last week talking about, you know, our personal intention was to show empathy and support when somebody's telling their story and in pain, but actually, you're crumpling the paper, essentially tearing out pieces. And here we've got the same similar scenario, if your leadership style is "I treat people how, like I want to be treated," then again, you're inserting yourself into what potentially could be a huge misstep,

Marsha Clark  13:45  
You are spot on! And, notice that I didn't even dive into the other aspect of knowing your people beyond the professional level. Right? And I want our leaders to understand that know your people... It doesn't mean that you have to insert yourself into their personal lives or ask them to, you know, tell, you know, deep and dark stories. It's helpful when you have an awareness of what life is like for them outside of work hours. And especially as it relates to their ability to perform their jobs. And, if you think someone on your team is experiencing a personal struggle, it's impacting their work. Well, it's not unreasonable for you to check in with them and see how you are the organization might be able to support them. But again, don't assume that just because you enjoy getting to know your team members, by sharing personal information about, you know, how you spent your weekend or showing your pet's latest Tic Toc video. It doesn't mean that, you know, everyone enjoys that same level of sharing. And if anything, that perceived intrusion may have the unintended consequences of breaking trust. And, you know, I do want to say too, though, I think I often ask my folks like on a Monday, "Well, what did you do this weekend?" It was very simple, you know, and I took note of that, back in my K Y P days. I had little index cards because we didn't have all the electronic tools we have today. And I kept up with, you know, what are their children's names? What are their children's ages? What do they do on weekends? So that if I have an opportunity to recognize a team members outstanding performance, knowing what they like to do when they're not at work is is often useful when I want to select that special recognition that they'll actually enjoy and appreciate. So that's another side benefit of knowing your people well.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  15:32  
Right. That makes so much sense. Earlier, you said that you didn't originally have a model for how to create this tight team of people you know, love, and trust, but that you do now. So what is that model? And how can our listeners use it to help create the same kind of team environment?

Marsha Clark  15:50  
Yeah, so this is a model that I introduce in chapter eight of my book, "Embracing Your Power," and I refer to it as a group trust framework. And so I'll read you just a short passage from the book. "For the majority of my work life, I did not have the benefit of the framework, which is based largely on the research and work of Sue Hammond. (I want to give her credit for this.) As I reflect, however, I can see that the elements of the model that she created, were really in place for those rock star teams that I had. And since learning this framework, I love it, because I can ensure that these group trust elements are always in place and can, in fact, then articulate them and teach them to others as well."

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  16:35  
Yeah. And, you've got a graphic in the book of this framework that I really like.

Marsha Clark  16:40  
Yeah. If I can ask our listeners, again, we ask you to envision things sometimes. And this is to think of a flower with six petals, and a circle in the middle of all the petals kind of like a sunflower, or something with that prominent floral center. And each petal, and the center itself reflects a unique dimension that's necessary to create an environment where group members really feel confident to be open with one another and take some of those interpersonal risks. And and just to be clear, again, this model doesn't just apply to work teams. It's it's useful and relevant and applicable to other groups such as families, religious congregations, book clubs, philanthropic groups, and the like.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  17:22  
Okay, so let's explore each one of these six dimensions of group trust.

Marsha Clark  17:27  
Yes. So again, now we're going to be naming the petals and kind of be using petal and dimension interchangeably here. So the first one we're going to talk about is spirit of unity. So number one petal is spirit of unity. And this dimension reflects that we're not a collection of individuals, rather, we're a group that thinks and operates as one. And what that looks like is that we make decisions and we generate ideas together in support of a shared vision, each person in the group, like they have a sense of belonging, not only for themselves, and they want to strive to help others feel that belonging to and they care about the other group members, and also feel cared, you know, for themselves by the other group members. So we're caring for each other. And each member has a commitment to one another and to the larger purpose or objective of the group. So this spirit of unity is a key ingredient to building trust in the team.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  18:32  
And this is also making me feel a family. Like, it feels very much like the family units.

Marsha Clark  18:38  
That's right! And friendship, circles, and so on. And, and then, so now let's move to the second petal or dimension, and that is strategic competence. And this is the general belief that the team has the skills to meet their goals and responsibility. And it's a recognition that no single person has all the skills, but collectively, the group has everything it needs. And each member of the group acknowledges, respects differs to and learns from the other members. And therefore, you're increasing the capabilities of the group as a whole. And this is where knowing your people definitely comes into play. I need to know that you know, the individual and the collective competencies of my team. And I need to be honest and transparent with the team about how their unique gifts and talents support and reinforce the overall strength of the team. And this really helps to create an environment of mutual respect and collaboration.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  19:39  
But yeah, so this petal - strategic competence - is making me think about startups and a startup environment and who are the core people that start a business.

Marsha Clark  19:50  
Well, or if you've been asked to take over a new group, or you've had a restructuring now there are different people on the team. Those are startups in their own right,. Right? So, then moving along the third petal or dimension is predictability and reliability. And so every member of the group relies on each of the other members to deliver on their commitments doing what they say they're going to do. And they can count on them to do relevant and timely research, make business-driven recommendations, deliver on time, within budget, again, and again, and again. And they have a track record of that. That's the predictability and the reliability component. And if something happens, that prevents a team member from doing these things, you can also reliably count on them to let everyone know what's going on. And to even ask for help.

Oh, my God, that's huge. I mean, asking for help with when people need to is something that, I think, is a rare skill. So I love that there's an expectation that people will quickly acknowledge if they're going to miss a commitment.

Yeah, I think anecdotally, I would tell you, I think women really, we do try to do it all ourselves. We just pick up after everybody. So it's hard. It's hard to ask for help. And yet, it is one of the key indicators of high trust teams. They proactively communicate their, you know, mutual expectations. And they want to ensure that each person on the team knows their roles and responsibilities, as well as their performance objectives and metrics,

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  21:25  
Right. So it's not just the boss holding everyone accountable to the metrics. It's the whole team holding themselves to it.

Marsha Clark  21:33  
And I would tell you that that's what makes these teams rock star teams, right? It's the differentiator of high trust high performing teams. So I... We're spot on on the way that you're thinking about this. And so now let's move to this fourth petal, or dimension. And that's called integrity and openness. And so this framework that Sue developed is, defines integrity as a commitment to take action for the greater good. Not for personal agendas or personal gain, but for the greater good. You don't have any personal or hidden agendas. And then the openness is transparency, meaning that others know what you're thinking, because you're sharing your objectives. You're sharing your assumptions, your knowledge, your experience, your concerns, your hopes, your questions, your commitment, and no one on the team has to read your mind.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  22:30  
As you're describing this transparency, or openness, I'm just thinking how refreshing...  Refreshing it is to work on a team where that exists. It just eliminates all the games and the guesswork.

Marsha Clark  22:42  
Right! You know, it reduces the risk of misunderstandings and breakdowns. And it also reflects the congruence of doing what you say you're going to do. And you know, this idea, "I don't have to read your mind. I'm not making up stories that are inaccurate." That can get us in trouble. What I'm doing is I'm walking the talk. And I want to share with our listeners, one of my dear friends and colleagues, a woman by the name of Tracy Brown likes to say, "You can't talk your way out of what you've walked your way into." Because you know, another phrase is, "People hear what you say and believe what you do." Right? So you got to make sure those are aligned and congruent.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  23:23  
Yes, absolutely. I mean, yeah, walk... Can't talk your way out of what you've walked your way into.

Marsha Clark  23:30  
Right, right. Yeah. So one of my favorites, for sure. But and and now let's go to the fifth petal. And I want to share another important aspect of this dimension on integrity and open. So before we go to this next petal, it's about giving credit to your team members, for their individual results, because that's the integrity piece of it. You know, it might mean sharing credit with another team member. And if they've helped you achieve specific results, and I'm pretty sure most of our listeners have been a member of a group where they worked hard on something or only to have another member take credit for their work or success. And nothing breaks trust faster than that. So as a leader, I need to be mindful if that's might be happening on my team.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  24:16  
You know, I know we're focusing on high trust teams, but what you just said made me wonder... As a leader, what should I do if I discover that somebody is taking credit for other people's ideas or work on the team?

Marsha Clark  24:30  
Yeah. So what I have done and would recommend to our listeners that I've had a conversation with the person who took the credit, and that let them know how I received, you know, their behavior or their words, and ask them if that was their intention to take that credit. You know, and what I will tell you is that most of the times when I've done this, it was really not intentional. It was an oversight and, and then you know, of course, the next step is how do you make it right, right, because We're human, we're gonna make mistakes. We're going to have time crunches, we're going to stand up and be nervous in presenting something in and just forget to do it of Yes. And we have to make it right.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  25:12  
Yeah. I think that's probably the most common is when you're, you know.... It's like the Academy Awards. You're shocked when you get called to the stage. And now you've got to remember to thank everyone and their dog, right? Or someone's gonna get upset. So yes, this is... Yeah, this is really good.

Marsha Clark  25:29  
Yeah. And I think about when they're walking away from the microphone, and then they remember somebody. It's that's the right thing to do, right to ensure that you get it right, right. So let's move now to this last petal on the flower, which is the fifth dimension. And that's called collaborative intent. And many of the skills that are necessary to achieve a collaborative team revolve around the ability to be open to other team members points of view through constructive conversations. And constructive communication has this underlying intent. To build mutual understanding, you have a point of view or perspective that you want to share with the group, and big and you're open to hearing and considering each team members point of view or perspective as well. And after the most effective constructive conversations, each team member leaves that conversation with a broader perspective and a deeper understanding of the topic being discussed. We often talk about it as the group learned.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  26:35  
Right. And I'm guessing they probably also leave feeling heard and valued themselves as well, right?

Marsha Clark  26:42  
That's absolutely right. And collaborative intent provides the group with not only the benefit of the collective wisdom and ideas, but also the opportunity to build one another up and demonstrate that mutual respect. Thank people for their contributions. It's the perfect opportunity to practice and experience all the aspects of know, love, and trust. Love, in this case being respect and appreciation.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  27:06  
It's makes so much sense.

Marsha Clark  27:07  
Yeah. And then the final dimension in the framework is psychological safety. And this is that circle at the center of the flower petals. And it's particularly placed here, because it touches each of the other five dimensions are petals. And, it's a foundational element, as well as an enhancer. So it goes on the front-end psychological safety that allows me to speak up and collaborate and be open and transparent. And then it makes all of that stronger as a group. So it enhances the group trust, respect, and so on. And it represents the environment that's created by the team that makes group members feel safe enough to be vulnerable, and take some of those interpersonal risks with one another, in order to achieve goals. And so as a leader, you can watch for some of these visible behaviors from your group to check on the level of psychological safety. And, and some of these behaviors just to name a few. One, people can ask questions and not fear or ridicule or shame or embarrassment. Two, they can offer a different point of view or perspective without fear of, you know, resistance, rejection, denial. Third, I can just speak their truth period, here's the way I see it, or here's what I'm thinking, or here's what's been true for me. And then fourth, their contributions will be invited, acknowledged, and considered in the process of a group arriving at a decision or delivering some desired results. And I want to share with our listeners that I have written a white paper that our listeners can get access to from my website. And it's on the role of trauma and psychological safety, because we go into quite a bit more detail there. And so if they'd like to know more, they can go to my website, and learn more from that white paper.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  29:04  
Wow. Wow. So what did you think when you discovered this model, after you had already been leading for years?

Marsha Clark  29:13  
Yeah. So I'll be honest, I've felt validated. It's like, I know this story, I know this framework. And so it just all kind of clicked and you know, I love it when I find tools and models that provide whether it's the picture or the words or the list or whatever, to explain what my gut had been telling me all along. And, and it also makes it easier to teach it to others and, and it provided some additional clarity around some specific elements. So when we're doing the work as a team, did we have the spirit of unity and an appreciation of, you know, both the individual and the collective competence and the integrity and openness in every one of the other aspects of the model. So, did we love working together? Did we want to get up in the morning and come to work and you know, when you think about those rock star teams and why you want to replicate them and take them with you, is because you, that's what that feels like. That's what that looks like. So we just did it organically and through, you know, an evolutionary process, quite honestly, trial and error, like we learned a lot of things. And yet we were living out a model that we didn't even know existed. And so my name for it was no love and trust.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  30:26  
So how can our listeners use this group trust model?

Marsha Clark  30:31  
So in the book, I have an assessment table that encourages leaders, first, to discuss the framework with their teams. And to have an open conversation and get some alignment about what each petal, as well as that central dimension of psychological safety, means to them as individuals and as a team. And there's much to be gained just from having the conversation. It's like you're creating an environment or a culture. And then once there's been some agreement, do what I would call a baseline scoring. You know, where are we as a team on collaborative intent on openness and integrity on psychological safety. So now you're building this baseline. And then you can identify where do we want to improve. How can we get better together as a team? And then once you've done that baseline, and you begin to work on some of these things, because you now have, you know, a common understanding of what you want it to look like. You would periodically assess, "Are we making improvements over time?" And even as new members join your team, bringing them on board with this framework is also very useful.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  31:42  
So I have a quick just side question. I'm going to go a little bit deeper on this. What what happens if you're the leader, and you're wanting to walk your team through this group trust model? And there's someone on the team that... how can I phrase this properly?... is almost like the scapegoat, or the bullied one, or the one that's fearful and afraid to call out bad behavior that's happening within the group that you as the leader might not be aware of?

Marsha Clark  32:21  

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  32:21  
Like, how do you how do you use this model in order to provide that safety? Where, I mean, should in a situation like that you should... Should you offer the opportunity for this to be anonymous, at first? Like, go just a little bit deeper with us on that.

Marsha Clark  32:38  
So, this has so much to do with where your team is, when there is low trust. It is not unusual for people to be more reticent, or more fearful, or honestly just fearful. And so you've got to know whether... I will tell you. I'm not a big fan of anonymous things because If I want the openness, the transparency, the mutual trust and respect, then you can't do that in secret. It's why I hate, you know, anonymous employee suggestion lines. And you know, call these people up and tattletale on somebody. And yet, I know that that's a part of the reality of low trust cultures in organizations. So that's why I really encourage you to have the conversation about each one and allow each person to talk about what does collaborative, collaborative intent look like, for me? What does openness and integrity and maybe you just want to have that conversation first, and then maybe do a baseline scoring a little bit later. So that's one thing but but I also want to say to you in group dynamics, and we'll get more into this actually in book two. Different people in groups hold different kinds of energy for the group. Sometimes there's the person who holds the humor. Sometimes there's the person who holds the anger. Sometimes there's the person who holds the optimism. Sometimes there's... I mean, so different people hold different things. And they're... We have to be careful as leaders to not let that become - "You hold the anger, so I don't have to be angry." So I'm just gonna look to you to speak on behalf of the group for anger or you're always the optimist. So I don't have to be optimistic when we're working as a rock star know love and trust team. The mutuality of all of that is more important than the scapegoating of that. Yeah, so we don't we don't let others do the work that is ours, individually and collectively to do. So if I've got something funny to say, it may fall flat. But everybody loves me, so they're gonna let me... They're just gonna go, "Way to go, Marsha!" So I mean, that's kind of what I would say about it because every group has different kinds of dynamics. But this idea of, "It's not just my job to create the team dynamic. It's the team's job to build responsibility and accountability." And, and I was supporting a panel last week, and it was on diversity, equity and inclusion. And one of the women there spoke about, they are teaching their leaders how to gracefully call someone out, and how to respond gracefully when they get called out. And I've got follow up work I'm going to do with her because...

I want that on the podcast...

That hugely important! This idea of gracefully calling someone out, when they're not honoring, you know, the group trust model, or the norms of our group or the mutual trust and respect. Right? You know, that kind of thing? So I think there's, there's always so many dynamics at play with teams.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  36:04  

Marsha Clark  36:05  
We continue to learn...

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  36:06  
Well, and I just wanted to just kind of bring this up as a last question before we walk through a little bit of a wrap up. Because I feel like the long term effects of COVID in 2020 are affecting our group dynamics in team. Especially, you know, some companies, they're going back to work... everyone. Most companies are still this hybrid of - I go into the office two or three days a week, or one day, a week, or whenever I need to have a conference meeting. But this distancing, that has happened. The physicality of it has also affected us emotionally, and our connectivity to our teams, because we used to be around these people, eight, nine hours a day, five days a week, and now we're not. And so losing that familiarity has caused this shift. So I just wanted to let you...

Marsha Clark  37:00  
Yeah. there's a placeholder for that. Because there's, you know, we still don't understand all all of the residual effects of that. And, you know, every time we thought we were gonna be able to come back into the office another variant came along. We're still in the middle of all that. Right? It wasn't just 2020. It's 2021. And now it's 2022. So I mean, I think, as I have said, we're making it up every day because we can't go to best practices or competitive analysis because everybody's...

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  37:30  
Everybody's struggling also. Well, Marsha, thank you so much for walking us through this group trust framework. It's a lot to digest with all the elements that help you create that high trust environment. And I love that we got to learn about K Y P - know your people. And heard a few ideas on what we can do to truly know our people on a more meaningful level.

Marsha Clark  37:56  
Yeah, it's been my pleasure to share this information. And as I said earlier, it's a great opportunity for me to get clear on you know, the phrase that I've been using for decades, and an even more powerful and meaningful for me now to with this. So thank you for that opportunity. And what I want women and our listeners to take away is really two things K Y P. Know your people, and all that that includes. And then secondly is to take a look at that group trust framework and all those elements and think about how you can assess your own team. And just a quick aside on this. When we're in class, and we do this, I say think about your team. So you're the leader and your direct reports. assess that. Now, here's the second assessment. You're a team member, on your boss's team, assess that team. And then I asked the class, how many of you scored your team higher than your boss's team? And I'm going to tell you that 90% raise their hands. And I say to them, now ask YOUR team. Not initially. You got to lay the groundwork. You've got to get, you know, common understanding and so on. But we had this belief that OUR team is better than our boss's team, oftentimes. And I just, you know, you've got to ask the right questions to the right people to really know the truth in that because we know our intention. Right? But we may not know how it's being received by others.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  39:30  
Right. Oh, the stories we tell ourselves. So I really feel full circle on this episode since we started with me confessing my fear of missing out about your know, love, and trust group. I SO wanted to be in that circle. I've always been that person who just you know, wants to be included in things. I think most people are. And now I feel like I am with the work that we've been doing on these podcasts.

Marsha Clark  39:55  
Well, how many years later now? I can clearly tell you that you are in my know, love, and trust circle because of the great work that you do and the heart that you bring to it. And I love it. And yes, you're you're part of the new rock star band!.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  40:12  
Thank you. I love it! I love it! The band that keeps getting bigger! Marsha's band keeps getting bigger. So thank you all our listeners for joining us today on our journey of authentic powerful leadership. Please download, subscribe, and share this podcast wherever you prefer to listen. And please visit Marsha's website at for links to the tools that we talked about today. Subscribe to her email list. Stay up to date on everything in Marsha's world. And you can also find out more about her book - "Embracing Your Power" - on the site as well as her social media.

Marsha Clark  40:50  
Well thank you, Wendi, again! More good stuff! I have to tell you it just kind of surprises me sometimes with... how we can talk about some of these things, and we're doing it week after week after week, and there's a lot of good stuff on here!

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  41:05  
There's a lot of GREAT stuff on here! We get feedback on the site, on social media. I'm sure you're getting email responses.

Marsha Clark  41:16  
It's true! Yeah, you know, the women tell me from the programs even many, many years ago, "I still use my Power Of Self stuff almost every single day!" And I was with a group yesterday and they were telling me about that from 14 years ago. And you know, I hope our listeners are grasping this and how simple things... because I think when you have come to use them for such long periods of time that we kind of take them for granted. But the simplicity of them is a part of the power of them because then it makes them usable. Right? You know. And so I do hope our listeners got some good things from today and that you'll join us again next week. And we love bringing these to you and as always, here's to women supporting women!

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