Podcast Transcript

Huh

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:10  
Welcome to "Your Authentic Path To Powerful Leadership" with Marsha Clark. Join us on this journey where we uncover what it takes to be a powerful woman leader. Marsha, I've got to tell you, every time I've been looking at the name of this episode on our calendar, I laugh and I can't wait to hear what we're going to talk about today with this one.

Marsha Clark  0:34  
Huh?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:38  
Exactly! Like every conversation I have with certain unnamed people in my life, and I feel like I do the dog head tilt like, huh?

Marsha Clark  0:47  
I know, I know. So you know, we use our episode titles to both entice or intrigue, whichever one, but also to give a little hint of what we're going to talk about. So I'm hoping our listeners are catching on that today we're going to be talking about conversation tools, and specifically one that we really like called The Three Level Listening Model.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:09  
Yes, another really helpful and relevant topic. This time, we're talking about listening. Last week, we were talking about talking, giving feedback -  Talk To Me, Not About Me. So this is going to be good to flip it and talk about listening. And I feel like I get to go through the Power of Self Program again every week. I just want everyone to know this is such a perk of my job. I love it.

Marsha Clark  1:33  
You know, and women have told me this not only listening to these, but also in reading the books. So it is like a trip down memory lane with a few new things that have been added along the way.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:46  
Exactly. But the importance of that reinforcement and repetition is enormous. All right, let's go. So this three level listening model is a tool that you include in your chapter on Building Collaboration Skills in the book, "Embracing Your Power".

Marsha Clark  2:05  
Yes, and and you know, we're going to talk about a number of collaboration skills when we explore the chapter on Managing Conflict, because collaboration is one of the five ways in which we can resolve conflict or manage conflict. And we're gonna have a future episode that's completely dedicated to that. But so for today, we're gonna really laser in on one of those aspects, which is the ability to listen, right? If we're gonna collaborate we've got to listen to what others have to say, and I want to do something a little different today and give, you know, the high level overview of that model, to set it up and then we'll go into it step by step.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  2:43  
Totally makes sense.

Marsha Clark  2:44  
All right. So, you know, I'm going to give you this overview. You know, I've got to give you the overview first. So here's the three levels, it's pretty straightforward. Level one is Listening With Your Ears, right? Level two is Listening With Your Head. And level three is Listening With Your Heart.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  3:03  
Well, level one is pretty straightforward. Listening with your ears, obviously you know, that's a basic skill for most of us.

Marsha Clark  3:12  
Right, and some people have said, we have two ears and one mouth to listen twice as much as we talk. So just a little tidbit there.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  3:20  
If only that was so.

Marsha Clark  3:22  
Yes, yes, exactly. And you know, we say it's obvious and yet, maybe it's not. And so, we all know how often even this most basic level of listening isn't actually happening when we're having conversations or interactions. So, you know, think about how often you're meeting and someone else is talking. And you may find yourself drifting off, and it might look like you're listening, and you might even think you're paying attention. But then, you know, a few minutes later, somebody says your name and you pop out of whatever, you know, mental tab you were on and thinking about, and you realize you have no idea what's been said for the last three minutes.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  3:58  
Oh, yeah. Guilty. Straight on, especially, you know what, it's so funny. I think the more people are involved, the more likely it's to happen. I mean, especially, you know, you're on the Zoom meeting, and there's 27 other faces on the screen. Yeah, you can hide, you can hide. I can hide, I can multi-task. That's right.

Marsha Clark  4:20  
So we're all guilty of this. And as you say, virtual meetings may get even more challenging. And you know, that idea that we're going to try to be multitasking or, you know, whatever other distraction we might be caught up in and we zone out, you know. It's like in our brains we have multiple tabs open, right, you know, like on the toolbar tab,  and you know people even have multiple screens in front of them, and there might be another device laying on the desk next to them. And so the temptations for distraction are really high all the time. And so level one, Listening With Your Ears, here's the definition. We're honestly just looking for enough focus and attention that you could just simply repeat back to me what the other person just said. So quite honestly, it's the lowest level of listening, but that doesn't mean it's not valuable because you can't do anything, you can't do level two or three without doing level one. And so at a minimum, it sends a message that you're invested enough in the conversation that is going on with the other person that you want to pay attention to what they have to say. So, you know, in a human condition, psychology sort of way, all any of us really want in this life is to be seen, heard and valued. This is one of the big three, "heard", and if I stay present and focused and engaged with you, it also says it's because I value you. So that's a big deal in interpersonal relationships.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  5:56  
Now, I know that we've talked about this myth of multitasking before, that it's actually not multitasking, it's task switching.

Marsha Clark  6:06  
Yes.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  6:07  
And so since we're on this topic, as it relates to listening specifically, what are some tips you can share with us for helping us stay focused during a conversation and not be task switching?

Marsha Clark  6:23  
So, you know, I'm probably going to be both unpopular, and they'll go, oh, yeah, frustrating, you don't really understand my life, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. But it's not hard. I should say, it's not complex, it's simple. It is hard. So you've got to really want to be focused and be present. So number one on the list is eliminate, or at least reduce your distractions. And that means, let's go, shutting down all those peripheral apps.  If I'm on a Zoom call, turn off your email so that it doesn't keep popping up in the corner of the of the screen. And get the documents that aren't pertinent to whatever meeting your conversation you're in out of the way. If you're in a meeting focused on it, get that agenda in front of you and don't have any other content that doesn't relate to that agenda, or to whatever the topic is. And then you can even shut down your browser, and dare I say, turn your phone on Silent or even on Do Not Disturb because you know, it's like the buzz, even if you have it on Silent it still can buzz and everybody knows it's buzzing, and it takes every ounce of our being not to go reach over there and look at it. Yeah, just get it away. And, you know, be honest with yourself and the other people that are in the conversation about the distractions, and you know, have an agreement, almost, that we're all going to put our phones away and we're really going to focus on why we're here. Because you know, what often happens is the meetings go longer, and then we're the very ones that complain about the meetings going longer. So if you have a huge deadline or challenge and any of that kind of stuff that's not related to the current conversation and you know, maybe it really is such a distraction that you need to excuse yourself from the meeting and go take care of it, right. I was again teaching a class today and there was a woman who said, "I was talking to the CEO of the organization, and I got a call from my son's school. And guess what? I told the CEO that I just got a call from my son's school and I'll have to call him back." And she said, you know, because "One of my big values is the role of being a mother and my children come first on everything." And so, you know, sometimes you've just got to go take care of that because do you think she was going to be focused in her conversation with the CEO after receiving that and not calling them back for however long it might take? Of course not. So you may need to reschedule or call right back or let me go take care of this and come back. But manage those distractions if they really are going to be such a distraction that you can't be present. And then the second thing I'm going to tell you is that consider taking notes, my way of staying engaged even when it was mind numbing topics. I would take notes, because what note taking does is it requires us to engage our whole brain. And so not just the auditory senses of listening, but you know, taking notes stimulates the kinesthetic because my hand is moving, and you know, visual because I'm looking at what I'm writing. And it helps you to both engage, and it can also help with retention of whatever it is that's being talked about here. So, you know, one note is make sure your note taking, especially if you're taking notes on the keyboard right so some of us do that rather than handwritten notes, and it can be the click, click, click, click, click click can be a distraction for somebody else. So be careful about that as well as you're taking into account the note taking.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  10:02  
Yeah. I am a huge note taker. And I am such a prolific note taker that if I'm having a meeting, I hand-write notes as the meeting is happening. And then once the meeting is over, I go back and I type the notes of what I've written into Evernote or a file system of some kind, you know where the relevant information is. And I find that those three data points, so the listening first, the writing, and then the typing really helps me. Like, I remember meetings, and totally helps me retain information. And this seems to be an issue as I get older. I need help retaining information. So good stuff.

Marsha Clark  10:52  
Yes, it is a great way to keep the mind focused. And I want to add a third one too here that if for some reason you realize you've missed something that was said, whatever the reason may be, you were taking notes and you were on the last point, not the next point or whatever. You know it can feel awkward but you know, just ask. Most of the time, if you ask the other person, it's going to give them a sense of you really care about what they have to say. You know I mean, so it's not, can you not keep up? And I'm gonna bet you especially when you have fast talkers, or you have people in the room who are unfamiliar with whatever the topic might be.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  11:29  
Or if they're nervous and talking fast because they're nervous.

Marsha Clark  11:34  
Yes. So you can say, you know, "It sounds to me like you said something really important, and I'm taking notes and I didn't catch it all. Would you repeat what you just said?" And I know people ask me that, because I do talk fast. And of course I can't say it exactly like I said it two times in a row. So, but it makes it, it reinforces it for everyone in the room.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  11:52  
Mm hmm. Yes. So I, you know, I get that and agree with you that it might feel awkward to ask, but you're right. When someone asks me to repeat myself I'm not offended at all. I'm honored that they're wanting to get the information especially when they frame it with something like will you say that again, I want to make sure I heard exactly what you said, or I want to better understand.

Marsha Clark  12:17  
Well, and this is where I often say give yourself grace and give others grace, right? Because we're all trying to do 14 things at one time, you know, or we're at least they're running through our mind constantly. And so just recognize we're all trying to stay focused and still trying to get all the to do things done. And so give yourself some grace and others as well.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  12:37  
Yeah, the other thing you say in the book about this that I think is so relevant and true is how often we're distracted not by other things, but by our own thoughts and responses to what's going on, how we're going to respond to the other person. It's like we're forming our own rebuttal, not talking so we stop listening, because we're forming our argument over here in the corner.

Marsha Clark  13:06  
That's right. And and I'll tell you a couple of things that happen. We can, our brains can process 500 to 600 words a minute. And in reality, people talk 150 to 200 words a minute. So that extra capacity in our brains is when we can let those kinds of things in. So listening with our ears requires us to stay fully present for the entire duration, so looking them in the eye, paying attention, taking notes. And I say that, and I don't mean that you can't interact or interject so let's get clear about that as well. But that's still actively listening as long as what you have to say is relevant or you can make the connection there. And you know, what we mean by this is catching yourself completely disengaging from what the other person is saying because you're doing your own mental Google search and looking for your response and when in reality, you stopped listening several minutes ago. But, you know, that can happen for us. But you know, I want to stay and hear everything you have to say. Because now my whatever point I want to make can be more to the point and more relevant.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  14:25  
Yeah, yep. Great tips for level one listening. So now let's talk about level two listening.

Marsha Clark  14:33  
All right. So this is Listening With Your Head, with your brain. So if you've accomplished level one listening, now what you've got to do after you've taken all that in is you've got to analyze it and you've got to process it. You know, and it's at this level that we begin to start asking ourselves questions about what we just heard.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  14:57  
Mm hmm. So the first question that you include in the book is a throwback to what we talked about a couple of weeks ago in our episode on the Ladder of Inference.

Marsha Clark  15:09  
Yes. Right. So, you know, the first question, good connection there, how does it connect to what your experience or research tells you? So that's typically the first question that our brain asks, right? So you said, ABC, you know, JQR, and I go okay, how does that connect with the experience that I have about ABC JQR, you know, or what the research was that I talked about? And and so when we say the first question, it's not that it's always the first question, but it is a great place to start for the fact that we understand that we're selecting the data much as we talked about in that Ladder of Inference episode. So when I'm listening with my head, one of the first things I want to explore is how what I'm hearing might be different from my own experience or my own research. And where does that come from? You know, for our listeners from the last episode it's our pool of data, right? It's that pool, infinite pool of data. So for those of you who didn't have a chance to listen to the Ladder of Inference episode, it was called "A Dangerous Dance" was the name of the episode and we're not going to spoil it but you can get the Cliff's Notes version here. It's that we all have different experiences and data, and we use those to form our opinions and our beliefs. And so at this level of listening, listening with our heads, we have that opportunity to compare and contrast what we're hearing from the other person with our own thoughts.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  16:44  
Right. And I think it's important to point out here that the question is, how does it connect with your experience or research versus is it right or wrong?

Marsha Clark  16:58  
Yes, that is a very important point.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  17:01  
Yes, very different questions.

Marsha Clark  17:03  
So it's not when I say How does this connect? It's not an evaluative question to say right or wrong. It's exploratory. I'm curious, and I'm trying to make those connections in my brain. So listening with my head isn't about proving my point, you know, being right, we talked about that, or finding flaws in theirs. It's really a call to use our critical thinking skills of applying those, have you heard of "The Six Honest Serving Men" from the Rudyard Kipling poem? Do you know that one?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  17:39  
No, I do not remember this. So please tell us.

Marsha Clark  17:43  
Yeah, so you'll recognize it. I'm gonna bet you're gonna recognize it as soon as I say it. So. "I keep six honest serving men. They taught me all I knew. Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who."

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  18:02  
Oh, wow. Yeah, I remember that one now.

Marsha Clark  18:07  
In English class, Communication class.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  18:09  
Exactly. English. I'm remembering this. High school English. Yes.

Marsha Clark  18:13  
Yeah. So those Six Honest Serving Men as Kipling refers to them are those fundamental critical thinking question starters. So they're words that prompt open-ended questions and in that level two Listening With Our Head. So the other questions, you know, that we used in the book for level two could easily be adapted to be the open-ended questions too. So for example, in what way is their information relevant to whatever topic we're talking about? It's sort of a twist on the what else is possible or what else could be true, which we've also talked about in some previous podcasts. And those are questions that serve us well, that we like to ask. Another question is, how can I build on their thinking or ideas? So generative thinking, innovation, creativity comes from that and building on each other's ideas. And where could it work, right? So where might we be able to apply this in ways that would get us the desired results? And then I love this last one, because it's the learner's mindset, right, and really broadening our perspectives. How can it expand my thinking, how can it broaden my perspective and broaden my viewpoint?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  19:29  
Right, so level two listening, Listening With Your Head, is all about applying that critical thinking to what you're hearing, with the key being that critical thinking versus judgmental thinking. Critical thinking is asking more of these open-ended deep questions rather than critical questions.

Marsha Clark  19:53  
And what that does is it keeps us open to possibilities because when we're judging or critiquing, it shuts it down, just closes it off, we're done. And there's no path forward, right? Because what we're trying to get to is the right solution or the right answer or the right decision, whatever it might be.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  20:12  
Okay, so then level three listening is Listening With Your Heart. What are we doing it that level?

Marsha Clark  20:19  
Yeah. And you know, this is always an interesting one because anytime you mention heart or feelings, everybody goes soft. That listening with your heart can sound too soft or not be fact-based, you know, for so many. And in reality we're making many, many hard choices every single day. And what we then do is retrofit the data or the facts to really justify whatever, you know, heart decision we may have made.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  20:47  
Absolutely.

Marsha Clark  20:48  
Yeah. And the one that I use in the book that I think is such an exemplary reflection of this is, it relates to hiring interview. So anybody who's ever done the hiring process, and you know, been in a position to extend an offer and not extend an offer. So, you know, the, there's lots of research around this, and many scenarios that describe it. So, you know, let's say you're scheduled for a one hour interview with a candidate. And at the end of that hour you're going to either extend the offer or not extend the offer to this candidate. And you've reviewed the candidates resume, and you know, you've got your questions ready, and that sort of thing. Well, what the literature and the research tells us is that a majority of us are going to make up our minds to extend or not extend that offer at around the 15 minute mark. We have an hour interview, but we're biased by minute 15. So then what we do is for the remaining 45 minutes, you hear the candidate's responses through the lens or filter, based on the decision you made at the 15 minute mark. So in other words, you've chosen to extend that offer, you know, and you'll interpret the candidate's subsequent responses favorably or or the other way around, it can be vice versa. So it's, there's just too much literature, too much research to refute that this is what many, many, many, many people do.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  22:24  
I totally believe it, because I'm telling you, I'm sitting here remembering interviews where I was the candidate, and I could feel the room change. Yes, you get to that 15 minute mark and then, or 20 maybe at the max, and then the rest of the conversation is collaborative. It goes from "us" and "you" to a "we" conversation. Yeah, and, you know, those little hints of like moving forward or sliding the paper to where both of you can see it from a side angle across the table, you know, those things. And honestly, so I'm remembering it as a candidate and I'm also remembering it interviewing other people and having the same reaction and doing the same thing. So it's just so funny, that so, we're making emotion based decisions.

Marsha Clark  23:21  
We are and we'll call it chemistry, we'll call it gut instinct, you know, we'll call it all those things as if somehow that makes it easier or better or more, you know, acceptable. But just think back though to that interview scenario. So in reality, how much information, factual information did you gather in that 15 minutes?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  23:42  
Very little.

Marsha Clark  23:42  
You know, you had reviewed the resume so that gave you some factual data. And you know, but we know that really, the resume doesn't play the major part in your hiring or extending decision. And what else was going on in that 15 minutes? Well, so let's just say it was an in-person or even if it was a virtual or phone interview, you know. But I want to walk through the in-person because it brings in more of the senses. So the candidate enters the room that you're sitting in to have his interview, his or her interview, and shake hands. And here are all the more subtle, heart-based cues that you processed. Was it an appropriately firm handshake? Did that candidate walk in with a competent gait? Did they look you in the eye when they shook your hand? Did they smile? Where they warm? Did you feel a connection? I mean, those are all happening again in that very short period of time. And so then you after that just brief exchange, but you've taken in all that data, you spend the first several minutes introducing yourself, describing the role, perhaps the company you know, whatever it might be, and after a self introduction by the candidate, you finally start asking your questions. So you're basing your decision on the subconscious and even unconscious reaction in that first 15 minutes. And then everything past that you've got a pair of glasses on, right? I'm selecting to hear the data that confirms or affirms the decision that I made at that 15. Now again, you can describe it as gut instinct, intuition, chemistry, whatever. But that's what I mean when I say we're listening with our hearts. And if you're conscious and you know, I call it high alert, you'll notice that that's happening to you many times every single day, not just in interviews.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  25:46  
Yes, yes, I'm remembering this section in your book. And as you're explaining it here. I'm remembering those cues because of how powerful they were and how much they drive our thinking.

Marsha Clark  26:00  
Yeah, yeah. And, and again, it's not just how we handle interviews, it's from how we see colleagues, clients, other drivers on the road, were the grocery store clerks nice, you know, conference speakers, and even when you look at television characters. I mean, we're, all of this is, you know, an unconscious subconscious visual connection. And I want to bring one other thing in. Have you ever heard the old saying, "I'll believe it when I see it"?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  26:28  
Yes.

Marsha Clark  26:29  
Yeah, we've all heard that growing up. Here's the reality of that. Our brains work the opposite way. So now, I want you to get this. Instead of "I'll believe it when I see it", change it to, because this is how it really works, "If I believe it, I will see it". So if I believe you're smart, based on however I processed the data coming in, I'm going to trust you when you talk. I'm gonna believe what you say. But if I believe you aren't smart, I'm going to question, challenge, ignore, criticize, judge, diminish anything that you have to say. It's gonna go in one ear and right out the other.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  27:10  
So true. If I believe it, I will see it. What a powerful switch.

Marsha Clark  27:15  
Well and again, a more accurate one if you're describing the way our brains work. And so I want you to also make this connection in that this is the essence of what we call unconscious bias because we're making up stories about others without real information, right, without adequate information. Maybe your gut instinct is right and we know hiring decisions are hard, you know, because some people interview well and don't perform well, and some people interview horribly and perform stellar. So you know that it's always a 50/50. But we've got to question, you know, what our process is as we're getting to that point. And, you know, that's where stereotypes can come into play. And I just, stereotypes and unconscious bias are dangerous places for us to live because it shuts down possibilities. And so that's why I think it's important to be aware of this third level of listening and recognizing that we do it automatically. I mean it's there whether we recognize it or not, and we're not aware that we're doing it, and it may get in the way of us fully exploring the potential of an idea or a person and, you know, especially important when you're looking at interviewing candidates. No, I will also tell you, you know, there's the whole concept of the blind, resumes blind interview process. I'll give you a quick story. The Boston Symphony was noticing that they did not have a very diverse, if you just have the visual optics of gender, race, and so on, they were not very diverse. So instead of people auditioning in a public way where everyone could watch them play their instrument, they put them behind a screen. And the people listening did not know whether it was a woman or a man, young or old, you know, black or white or whatever. And guess what? Their Symphony became more diverse just by a blind interview process, because it shuts out some of that other sensory, and it really does lend itself more to the factual information provided by that candidate.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  29:36  
Which was the pure talent.

Marsha Clark  29:37  
Right! Yeah.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  29:38  
Yeah. Yeah. I'm loving this compact powerpack tool of three levels of listening - our ears, our head, our heart. Yeah, so many breakdowns could be avoided if we focused more on these three levels and got intentional about our listening and recognizing that there are levels to our listening,

Marsha Clark  30:00  
That's right. That's right. So, you know, at the core of many employee complaints, they'll often cite communication breakdown as the reason for their complaint. And so it's also the catalyst for relationship issues, it's poor communication, we just aren't on the same page, we're just not speaking the same language, or you know, all of that. So if we slow down and take the time to consider these three levels of listening, and even apply the tips that we've offered today, I think you'll begin to see some improvements in making the kind of connections and ensuring that the other person is hearing your intended message because they've stayed present and they've stayed engaged with you.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  30:42  
Yeah. So let's do a quick recap of the key learnings and lessons from today.

Marsha Clark  30:48  
Sure, sure. So level one, Listening With Your Ears, eliminating or reducing those distractions and that includes your own, you know, internal distracting thoughts. Take notes and ask the other person to repeat if you miss something. And if need be, you can negotiate a better time when you know you can focus 100% on the conversation. And then level two, Listening With Your Head, so process and analyze what you've heard by applying those critical thinking skills. And that's, you know, the Six Serving Men from Rudyard Kipling, and stay open minded to learn and discover and not be judgmental. And then level three is Listening With Your Heart, and notice your own tendency to justify and qualify your heart decisions. And where are you letting your emotions drive your thinking or making up stories without all of the accurate and complete factual information?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  31:55  
Hmm, that last question, that one hit home. Where are you letting your emotions drive your thinking or making up stories? Wow. Okay, Marsha, thank you. I know I'm going to be paying more attention now to how I'm listening after this episode. And, you know, I know it'll be easy for all of us to slip back into habits and just do the, you know, I'm here, my ears are kind of here but then they're gone, kind of listening. And I'm formulating my responses already and all that. But so I hope that our listeners, I know that I'm going to put this episode on repeat, I hope our listeners do as well because I feel like just the simple observation of removing ourselves and observing ourselves and how we're listening will help reinforce these good habits.

Marsha Clark  32:51  
Well, I think that's right. And you know, we had an episode on I'm In, right, even doing check in and allowing people to put those distractions out and then put them away. Right, you know, so there's several of these tips and tools that you can use together that also help keep you more focused. And for my feelers out there, because you know, in the Myers-Briggs world I'm a feeler so I know we've got listeners out there who are feelers, and we get dinged all the time for making soft decisions, or you're too emotional, and all that kind of stuff. Here's what I want to tell all my listeners. Feelings are data, too.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  33:30  
Mm humm. So I know that.

That's right. Don't discount those feelings because you're going to learn a whole lot about what is that person passionate about? What is that person's hot button? What is that person's, you know, the sacred cows, if you will, all of the adages that go along with it. That's what feelings and, you know, language and tone and body language can tell you. And that's important data. And if we're making those heart decisions, you need to understand that on both sides, both sides of that conversation.

Wow! Feelings are data, too. Hey, we'll keep that one. That's a good one. Well thank you.

Marsha Clark  34:15  
I do, I do want to say look, we teach that which we most need to learn. We've heard that adage as well. And I have to remind myself, you know, I may teach this stuff but when I'm in it, I'm in it or when I'm distracted, I'm distracted, right? So I appreciate you know, everyone thinking about this as kind of a little booster shot that can help each of us because I think with all the distractions that are going on in the world this is an easy one to lose sight of. So we hope it's one that you can just kind of incorporate and remind yourself, whatever you put it on repeat and listen, whatever you know, sticky note you want to put on your computer screen or whatever it might be. Remind yourself because this is important because it happens all day every day.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  35:02  
Exactly, exactly. Well thank you, Marsha, and thank you, listeners, for joining us today on our journey of authentic powerful leadership. Please download, subscribe and share this podcast wherever you like to listen. Visit Marsha's website at MarciaClarkAnd Associates.com for all of the tools and other things that we talked about today, subscribe to her email list, and you can also find out more about Marsha and her latest book, "Embracing Your Power", on her website as well as other social media.

Marsha Clark  35:38  
Well, thanks to our listeners. We really do appreciate you joining us this episode and we hope you'll join us again in future episodes. And let us know what you're thinking and and if you have any questions or have thoughts or you know something doesn't quite make sense or you need support, let us know that as well. So as always, something that's near and dear to my heart and something we can do for one another is, "Here's to women supporting women"!