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Podcast Transcript

Enough With Chris Orzechowski

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:11  
Welcome to "Your Authentic Path to Powerful Leadership" with Marsha Clark. Join us on this journey where we're uncovering what it takes to be a powerful woman leader. And Marsha, welcome back to week two of National Women's History Month.

Marsha Clark  0:27  
Yes. And I'm so excited to get to be celebrating women!

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:31  
I know. And we kicked off the month last week with a really compelling look at misogyny and the idea of internalized misogyny. So this week, we're adding a another layer to the conversation and I can't wait to dig in deeper with our guest today and understand the reason why this show is entitled "Enough!"

Marsha Clark  0:51  
Yes, enough. So thank you, Wendi, and yes, this week we are digging deeper around this topic of internalized misogyny, and how we as women often struggle with that relentless voice of our inner critic. And we are so fortunate today to have Chris Orzechowski back with us to explore this topic. And hopefully our listeners will recall that she was with us in January in the episode titled "The Do-Over Button". And I love today that our episode is titled "Enough!" So welcome, Chris.

Chris Orzechowski  1:27  
Thank you, Marsha and Wendi, for inviting me back and allowing me to explore this important, really important idea of what it means to be enough. I'm thrilled to be here, and especially part of your focus on National Women's History Month.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:40  
Yes, exactly, us too. We're excited, too. So, Chris, I think this is something that will resonate with so many of our listeners. How did you even settle on this topic of "Enough"?

Chris Orzechowski  1:53  
Well, so many of us are walking around, I think, and on the outside it looks like we've got it all going on, right? We're confident, driven. People respect and admire us. Now on the outside things may seem to look like one way, but you know, we've got it all going on. On the inside, however, it's way different and nothing, sometimes, ever seems to be enough. Logically you know you're smart, capable, good person. But all of that flies out the window when we get triggered by a past trauma. So that's why we're here today. We thought we'd spend some time looking into this concept of enough.

Marsha Clark  2:34  
You know, I have to say this, as you were describing this, what goes on on the outside  can be different than the inside, someone many years ago gave me a framed picture of this duck sort of skimming across the pond, right? And the quote underneath it or the saying underneath it was "Always behave like a duck. Remain calm and unruffled on the surface and pedal like the devil underneath." And I just think that underneath stuff is the inside stuff, right? We want it to look like we just got it all going on, and yet we are pedaling like the dickens. So I just had to share that visual image and the connection back to my history. But so Chris, one of the reasons we're so excited to have you back to talk about this content is because you bring a unique perspective and experience to the table. And for those who missed her introduction in the "Do-Over Button" episode, I just want to let everybody know you're an accredited and certified executive and integral coach. And that this integral coaching, which I think is so important here, is truly a comprehensive methodology that addresses the whole person, drawing upon the wisdom of the head, the heart and the body. And that the work that you do is deep work, and that it is really holding up a mirror for each of us to know who we are, who we aspire to be. And you've done this work with women's groups and with women in particular. And I think you've got some real perspective to share with our listeners today.

Chris Orzechowski  4:14  
Thank you so much. Thank you, Marsha. And yes, I know you've explored this topic before on, you know, the topic of  enough, the concept of imposter syndrome and the inner critic, but I want to see what I can do to maybe add to the conversation in a way your listeners, well, maybe they'll have more tools or some different tools to help them when they're feeling like they're not quite enough.

Marsha Clark  4:38  
Yeah, I think that's perfect. And we're very tools oriented. Good leaders know they have a toolkit. Great leaders know what tool to use when. So bring on the tools.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:49  
So Chris, where do you even start with a topic like this?

Chris Orzechowski  4:52  
Well, I think it actually helps to start with the word itself. You know, if you look up the word "enough," you'll find that it means for some adequate for what afforded for the want or need, kind of like, you know, I have enough money; a quantity or degree that answers purpose or satisfies a desire, like sufficiently. You know Seth Godin says, it's what he feels that the definition is is it's to feel sufficient, to be satisfied with what we have. And in Japanese, there's a word for that. It's called Shusoku.

Marsha Clark  5:29  
I get all that, right. I mean, you know, it meets my needs or satisfies my desire or feels sufficient, but I don't get real excited about that.

Chris Orzechowski  5:40  
I don't blame you at all. Absolutely, yeah, the word itself isn't really that inspirational. I don't know, anybody who wakes up in the morning with the sole goal of I just want to be enough, you know, especially in our Western culture where we're driven and driven to be so much more, but the absence of enough can definitely be detrimental. The worst feeling in the world is knowing you did the best you could and it still wasn't enough.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  6:11  
Yeah. That's a great point. I mean, the last thing you want is to be not enough.

Chris Orzechowski  6:16  
Yeah. To be well, to not be enough or to have enough is really a bit of an obsession. Do we have enough time? Do we have enough money? Enough likes, enough friends? What is enough? Who is enough? What is this sense of enough? It brings to bear really what we fear and what we value.

Marsha Clark  6:36  
I so agree. And you know, I think about it in terms of the perspective of scarcity. There's not enough to go around and I'm not getting my fair share, or I'm not being my full self. And, you know, I think there's a song from "The Greatest Showman" that's Never Enough. And I mean, that could be any of our theme songs on any given day.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  6:57  
Please tell me you're gonna sing.

Marsha Clark  6:59  
Oh, no. No. Our listeners, our longtime listeners, know that Tracie Shipman is the one who does it. She's the one with the voice. So she's got the musical references. But in the song itself, it is she just keeps singing never enough, never enough, never enough. And, and I think those are messages that go through our heads on a routine basis. And I want to go back, Chris, to something that you said about the sense of enough, and the how it calls out what we fear and what we value. And I think that's a really powerful statement.

Chris Orzechowski  7:33  
Yeah, it's almost a little bit of, you know, what we want to stay away from, and what we want more of in our lives to really dial it down to its basis. But you know, Marsha, I'm not sure we ever really get a grasp of that sense of enough, or that we ever really feel it, you know, and it's different for each person. I had an old boyfriend once, say to me that I was the most honorable and complete person he'd ever met. Lovely, right? It just, it was, it touched my heart in a way I just, I can't even begin to tell you, but did I believe him, did I I really feel that in my heart? And so I might add that, to this definition or list of definitions, I want to add this sense of completeness.

Marsha Clark  8:19  
I love that. I so love that. And if you're feeling like you're not enough or you don't have enough, there is that sense of being incomplete. And so if I'm sensing or feeling that, what do I have to do to get to that sense of completeness? I mean, your boyfriend gave you that gift. Yes. And yet, what is the gift? (Yeah, exactly.) And what is the gift we can give ourselves around the sense of completeness?

Chris Orzechowski  8:46  
Exactly, exactly. Absolutely. Sometimes, you know, it can feel like, if you don't accomplish something, you know all the things on your list, then you're not enough. Or if you're not applying to all the jobs, you're not enough or didn't get that interview, you're not enough, you know, or even didn't land that promotion or the raise that you're simply not enough.

Marsha Clark  9:06  
Well, and I want to go back. I missed the deadline, so I didn't work hard enough. I didn't give it 120%, so, you know, I didn't do my best work. So I didn't do enough work to make it my very best. I think those are the things, and I just have to say too, so I'm also I don't know how many of our listeners might remember Al Franken on Saturday Night Live, his in the mirror mantra of I'm good enough, I'm smart enough and gosh darn people. I laughingly say we need those mantras to remind ourselves we are enough.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  9:41  
Yes. It's an endless list of what we can construct about ourselves that aren't enough.

Chris Orzechowski  9:50  
Truly endless. Absolutely. And what I do as a coach and as part of conversations like this, is to try to help people reframe and disconnect from that limiting belief, and to help them reinforce that, you know, your value doesn't come from all you're doing, doesn't come from the acceptance, your title, your job, your salary, you know, and that you really are so much more than this.

Marsha Clark  10:14  
Yeah. And you know, how do we start every meeting with new people? What's your name? Where do you work? What do you do? I mean, right? And so we have all kinds of inferences, that that is who we are when, especially in our professional lives. So the fact that you and I agree that that is not, does not define us is one of the reasons I love having you on this podcast.

Chris Orzechowski  10:36  
Thank you. Actually, I had a neighbor many, many years ago. I met him across the street from me. I didn't know him at all and for the same reason, that's what we do. We say, give me your credentials. And that was the first thing I said. Well, you know, what do you do? What are you in? He was so turned off by that and I think he was at the point, I should have paid much more attention to him, he was so much more evolved than I was at this point. And, I was like, what, what did I do wrong? That's what people do. But people don't want that. That's not really what they're looking for. So, you know, the reality, of course, though, is with all of this, by some measures there's really never enough. We can always come up with a reason why more is better, better is better, new is better, different is better. But where do you think this all comes from?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  11:22  
Yeah, that's the million dollar question, right? I mean, where does this come from? Well, I

Chris Orzechowski  11:27  
Well, I found in my work that much of our unrest, our unease, comes courtesy of our inner critic. Intellectually, I get that people struggle with inner critics, but I hadn't realized at all how incredibly prevalent it was amongst so many my friends and peers. These are really capable, confident individuals and they were still dealing with this, you know, that little voice in your head, that judge, that me? Well, many people think that often it may be the voice of one of your parents? Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not and sometimes it's not who you thought it was.

Marsha Clark  12:04  
Well, again, having done the work that I've done with women now for so many years, it can be a mother, a mother in law, an older sister, even a younger sister who expects you to... she has that unspoken idealized definition of what a big sister or or a younger sister, or sibling or whatever should be. And then you think about all the media messages that we get. And there, I think we've referenced this before, Wendi, but there's a documentary called Miss Representation and it is a condensed version of the messages of the media around women. And I'm, I'm going to tell our listeners, if you find it, there is one that is I would call for adult viewing because it gets rather graphic about the way women are reflected in the print media and movies and TV and so on, and then a version that you can watch with your younger daughters to let them know what impact these messages again and again and again and again, can have on us and contributes to this inner critic.

Chris Orzechowski  13:17  
Hmm. I love that and I was not aware of that. So thank you for sharing that resource. Love it. Yeah, it often shows up as a sense of shame, like what you were just talking about, and that something is missing. And it's so incredibly rampant. So I like to ask, what is it that my inner critic is saying to me? And when does it show up? That's really an interesting part of this whole puzzle.

Marsha Clark  13:43  
I think so too. And it certainly aligns. We had Tracie on in our Imposter Phenomenon with three different episodes on that particular topic in August of 2022. And you know, even that inner critic can play a role in sort of firing up or triggering that impostor syndrome.

Chris Orzechowski  14:04  
Absolutely. And these enoughness ideas, they're just, they're insidious and this can occur when things are going wrong, we get that, but and when they're going right, you know. Have you ever noticed that it can often be the good times that may elicit the sense of when is that other shoe gonna drop? I just don't trust it. It says I've never done enough. It says I could always be doing more or I'm lazy for not. It says though, this time though things went well, next time they might not. And you know, it keeps reaffirming this idea of you're just simply not enough.

Marsha Clark  14:38  
You know, this is, and this is for the parents out there. When your child brings home the report card of all A's and one B+, focus on all the A's, not just the B+ (right). 'Well, what happened there? Or, you know, you didn't do well on a test. Well, I told you you should have studied harder. You didn't study enough.' Recognize the way we as parents can unintentionally be feeding this inner critic voice.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  15:07  
Yep. All this sounds familiar to some of the serious impostor syndrome conversations that we've had in the past. And but it's fascinating to look at this also through this new lens of "enough".

Marsha Clark  15:22  

Chris Orzechowski  15:22  
I agree. Absolutely. It's part of what I get really curious about, too. Why do we and our inner critics struggle so much with this enoughness? We struggle because this false underlying belief about who you are or what you've done limits your power and potential in any given area of your life. For instance, I'm not, you know, I've not done enough, I'm too much. I don't care enough. I'm not seen. Marsha, didn't write a book about embracing your power?

Marsha Clark  15:53  
Why, yes, it just so happens that I did. And you know, Chris, what I would say about that even though the title of the book is "Embracing Your Power", there's two steps that come before you can embrace it which is part of what the book is about, which is acknowledging that I have it, understanding how to use it, how to hold on to it, how to share it, and how we can give it away unintentionally. And it's not just the book, but when I think about the 20 plus years of programming that we've done and the coaching that I do literally every single day in support of women who are in this place of not being enough.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  16:33  
Right. And so besides being our own worst enemies, what else fuels these feelings of not being enough, Chris?

Chris Orzechowski  16:42  
Well, I'm going to say that there's a really unhealthy synergy here between our own inner critic and the desire to please others. It's like the worst kind of dysfunctional relationship. And here's how it shows up. Are you doing backflips for others' approval? When you fear you're not enough, you're basically willing to shape shift and bend yourself into a pretzel like contortionists trying to make yourself into what you think it is that others want.

Marsha Clark  17:08  
Some of our listeners may remember that we did something called the eight fearless questions. And Margaret Wheatley talks about the words from the Buddha. And I love this quote, and again, I share this with women all the time. "At any given point in time in your life, a third of the world will love you, a third of the world will hate you and a third of the world will never even know that you exist." Right? And so if we just come to accept that part of it, that that's just going to be a part of whatever it is. And the older I get, the more I can see it and hold it and not be either paralyzed, stuck, or limited by it.

Chris Orzechowski  17:49  
That's beautiful, beautiful. Yeah, even in my own life, you know, I had a boss once who was never, ever, satisfied with anything and who couldn't communicate clearly what it was that she wanted until after all our projects are done. You know, at the time, try as I may, I was unable to forecast her needs. Even upon asking, then reflection, I wasn't the only one who was impacted by this, which unfortunately, left a staff of young aspiring artists always feeling their work didn't quite cut it.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  18:20  
Yeah, people who are not clear and then judge you on the back end...yeah, no time for that. And but yet, there's so many of us who, you said, contort yourself into a pretzel. There are so many of us who do that for bosses, for spouses, for PTA presidents, like you know, for people in our lives. And, you know, I would just offer that we continue to embrace Marsha's teachings around asking for clarity and then, you know, stating what you can do and setting a boundary around that and moving on and letting it go, otherwise.

Marsha Clark  19:02  
I want to share a story that was my experience. And there was a 12 year period when General Motors owned the company I worked for, EDS. So it was an automotive industry who bought a technology company, so the cultures could not have been more different. And so this was my first GM boss versus the many EDS bosses that I had at that time. And he brought me in and he asked me to do something. I went away and did it and I brought it back and he had this little kind of mini fit, you know, about it wasn't what he asked for. And I went "Oh my gosh." Of course what was first thing I thought? I did it wrong. I'm not enough. So then I asked for the instructions. I wrote them down. I got them clear. Came back, same thing. Then the third time I wrote it down, showed him what I wrote down was right. I'll be danged if I didn't come back in and it was... and by that time I'd had enough, right? I mean,

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  19:57  
That's a gaslighting experience.

Marsha Clark  20:00  
Well, what was happening was he was getting new information since he gave me the instructions but then didn't share that with me and expected me to read his mind or to know. And so I finally, and this was, you know, I now teach women that this is an option for them to try. But I said to him, "stop", as he was having this little mini fit for the fourth time. I said, if you're trying to clarify with me, this is not clarifying. If you're trying to intimidate me, I'm not intimidated. If you're trying to scare me, I'm not scared. I want to do the right work for you. And you've gotta help me out here and get clearer about it and keep me informed, otherwise, I can't read your mind. And I have to tell you, again, it was out of frustration that I spoke it, but I learned a great lesson from it which is, don't let people treat you that way because that outer critic can become an inner critic if we allow it to. And I was not going to give that up, you know, in that way because it was a shared responsibility.

Chris Orzechowski  21:10  
And so is this inner critic work because yes, guaranteed that for him to have that kind of critical dealing with you, where do you think that outer critic starts? It's from his inner critic. So it's this crazy cycle.

Marsha Clark  21:27  
Right connection. Right connection.

Chris Orzechowski  21:29  
It's a great, it is. And what I find is when people are really struggling with this dysfunctional dance between their hyper inner critic and their desire to please others, is that they're looking, as we do in so many areas of our lives where we feel like we need validation, for others to define what enough looks like for us.

Marsha Clark  21:50  
Yes and you know, those are conversations I have routinely routinely with coaching clients. Where did that come from? What message are you hearing, you know, that inner critic, what are you hearing? And is it really relevant and or useful in what you're trying to get done or accomplish?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  22:10  
So is "enough" an elusive thing, always out of reach?

Chris Orzechowski  22:15  
Well, it can definitely feel that way. And it's usually where we get stuck, right, especially in regards to our inner critic. I read once that enough is a carrot dangled in front of us externally by systems or others who benefit from us believing we're lacking. It will always be hanging out there, just out of reach. And then it'll be snatched away at the last second with the promise of just a little bit more work, a little harder trying, a little only if.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  22:43  
Yeah. This is feeling like a vicious cycle.

Chris Orzechowski  22:47  
Yes, yes, it can be, especially if we're operating without awareness that we're stuck in this limiting belief.

Marsha Clark  22:53  
Well, and I think that, you know, so much of what we do and teach starts with awareness, and then that awareness to strive to better understand what's going on here and then recognizing we have choices on how we choose to respond or listen to or not listen to that inner critic. And so I'm sure that our listeners are ready to hear from you, Chris, about how to stop this crazy cycle.

Chris Orzechowski  23:21  
Well, you know, I love that you asked that Marsha, and it's obviously not easy, otherwise, we would have done it a long time, right? But I often ask it this way. It's like, how do you stop chasing the vindictive carrot that you'll never get to taste and be okay with where you are instead? Or how do you stop that continuous running on the hamster wheel? My mom used to say that to me all the time. She'd see me on the hamster wheel in my head, or she would see me doing it actually in life.

Marsha Clark  23:50  
Yeah, I love those variations or versions of the question.

Chris Orzechowski  23:54  
Yeah. Well, here's my answer to that part of that question. Or maybe I should frame it in the form of a question. Is it in fact, misguided? Maybe we should simply accept what is, stop the search and realize that ordinary life with all its craziness is enough. Or maybe it's by redefining what "enough" really is to you.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  24:18  
Okay, you're gonna need to say that again because I feel like that's a super important point you just made and I don't want our listeners to keep rewinding to hear it again.

Chris Orzechowski  24:28  
My answer or really a question is, is it misguided that we're supposed to simply accept what it is, stop the search and realize that ordinary life with all its craziness is enough? Or maybe it's by redefining what enough is to you.

Marsha Clark  24:48  
I love the question that you know... we often offer what else is possible here, right? And instead of accepting or settling for everyone else's definition of "enough", what if you define it for yourself? How powerful is that? It's like we're taking back ownership of our lives. I mean, that's what the thought, the phrase that goes through my mind. And and I also think we're giving our power away by allowing, much less inviting, someone else to define us.

Chris Orzechowski  25:18  
Very well put. Yeah, it's not easy, because on some level too, often in some way, we're getting something out of this belief, right? We touched on that in our last episode of the podcast, you know, when we talked about it through the do over button, you know. There is something... somehow we're benefiting from the situation we're in right now.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  25:39  
Or we wouldn't let it go. So Chris, please say more about that, the idea that we're somehow getting some benefit from staying stuck in this belief system.

Chris Orzechowski  25:50  
Well, somewhere along the line, we accepted this quote unquote, "story" about not being enough, and we hold on to it rather than dismiss or denounce it. Imposter syndrome is a great example of this, you know. We can stay stuck here for a long time, as we are being fed by sources we are often trying to wean ourselves off of. In some ways, it's safer to play small, to remain less than. We don't have to risk so much. It's easier to put that inner critic voice on repeat and let it just absolutely limit our opportunities. The story feeds or reinforces our relationship with feeling less than and not up to the task.

Marsha Clark  26:30  
And I think that's a really interesting way of thinking about all of this as a relationship with feeling less than, my relationship with that feeling that's inside of me. And I can then understand how, no wonder it can be such a challenge to break away from something that I have a long standing relationship with.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  26:49  
So if we're stuck in this old story, how do we begin to tell ourselves a new one?

Chris Orzechowski  26:55  
Well, and to Marsha's point just a second ago, it does take courage to try to break up with that inner critic. And it's not, it isn't easy. But Wendi, it's, you know, what I would suggest is we start by staying curious and inquiring what does enough look like? We talked about before, defining it for ourselves, right? What does it look like for each of us in each of our different situations? And is it based on someone else's expectation, or ours? By operating off of other's ideas of enough, we don't have to take accountability of deciding when enough is enough. But then we're also at the mercy of others' expectations for our lives. It can be a very unhealthy cycle, making it very hard to own what it is we even want.

Marsha Clark  27:42  
You know, I harken back to when we talk about how do we make decisions about whether it's enough or not enough. And if it's a difficult decision, I often have my clients write down what is your decision criteria because now I have something against which to, you know, bounce my decision against, right? So it's not your opinion of what I should be or Wendi, your opinion of what I should be, it's my opinion. So I have my criteria of what is enough, whether it's enough time, enough money, enough love, enough whatever. And so I then link that to, we have women in every program I do write a personal vision. And I'm thinking that that vision is part of our defining what is enough. I want this life. I have a vision of my life being full and rewarding and purposeful and joyful, and, you know, enough. So that's the connections I'm making.

Chris Orzechowski  28:47  
Lovely, lovely. Well, and I've lived this recently myself with expectations of my family as I help, you know, with the care of my mom. She's battling cancer right now. And I question myself all the time. Am I doing enough? Am I doing too little? At times, I've struggled too with expectations of and from my family, my siblings, my friends, my mom, and especially myself. Everybody's got an opinion about this and that family stuff can be really triggering.

Marsha Clark  29:18  
Yes, the strongest triggers of all in my personal experience and the stories I hear from women everywhere.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  29:25  
Yeah. But I love the idea of setting your own definition of "enough" for you. I can imagine though, that getting clear is just the first step towards freedom, if you will.

Chris Orzechowski  29:33  
Yeah, you're right, Wendi, it is. It's a first very important step. I like to refer to the process as stepping into your power.

Marsha Clark  29:41  
There's a phrase we've used plenty of times and not only stepping into it and then standing in your power. And I think that's another great example of the alignment between our work, Chris, because we really do. That is a phrase we use often.

Chris Orzechowski  30:02  
That's awesome.

Marsha Clark  30:03  
So, in the spirit of learning and sharing, what does stepping into your power, what does that mean to you and what does it look like?

Chris Orzechowski  30:12  
Well, for me, it's really about choice. You mentioned this earlier. That word keeps popping up all the time. Choice. Agency, right. We do have a bigger part to play in this, I think, than sometimes we give ourselves credit. Putting a stake in the ground, creating and maintaining those strong boundaries, I think, absolutely is imperative. I heard that "enough" becomes a choice, not a measure of science.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  30:37  
Okay, say that again, please.

Chris Orzechowski  30:40  
The essence of choice is that a big bid really belongs to each of us, right? And if you decide you have enough, then you do and with that choice becomes a remarkable sort of responsibility and a sense of freedom, the freedom to be still, to become aware and to stop hiding from your life.

Marsha Clark  30:58  
Can I say something here, Wendi? We do a body of work around the masculine and the feminine, and the attributes associated with that. And one of the things we say is that if I am acting a certain way to conform to someone else's definition of who they think I should, quote, unquote, "should be", it's energy draining, it's manipulative, and it's giving our power away. If I choose to tap into all the parts of me, the masculine, the feminine, and everything, that's all a part of all of that. But it's my choice, because it's going to help me achieve my desired outcome. And to show up in a way that I want to show up in the world, that's empowering, energy giving, and holding on to my power by me defining me. So as I think about this idea of choice, I can choose to please you or I can choose to define myself and, the actions may appear similar to the outside. And yet, inside me, I know which drove that action or that behavior. And that makes all the difference in the world.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  32:14  
Yeah, Chris, I'm going to highlight, underscore something that you said. If you decide you have enough, then you do. And then what was it that you said about freedom?

Chris Orzechowski  32:25  
Enough becomes a choice. And with that choice, comes a remarkable sort of responsibility and sense of freedom, the freedom to be still, to become aware and to stop hiding from your life.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  32:37  
That is beautiful.

Marsha Clark  32:39  
It really is. And I'm sure you can tell we're so.... we talk about the power, and the subsequent responsibility and accountability of our choices all the time. So this is really, we call them goosebump moment.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  32:54  
Goosebump moment. Yes.

Marsha Clark  32:57  
So whenever we can we also like to offer some actual how-to. So people often tell us that that's different than what they might hear from others. Is not whereas I can tell you what we think is the right possibilities for you but how do we achieve those possibilities? So what concrete actions can you share to help with this idea of stepping into our power and owning our own definition of what is enough?

Chris Orzechowski  33:22  
Well, there are several. So what I like to start out with is probably the thing that's we most overlooked is just these little wins, right? Baby steps or little wins can actually be big wins, like being real in a conversation or having that difficult talk with a co worker.

Marsha Clark  33:40  
And you know, these parenthetical words, you know, I mean, that they matter. This, to me is where I get to be authentic because your word being real, or your phrase being real to me that says, and even if it's a difficult conversation, I'm owning, you know, this is where I stand in this, or this is how I feel about this, or this is the impact this had on me, that too is being authentic, without being rude without being, you know, accusatory or shaming or embarrassing or judging or any of that. It's just me saying, here's how I'm feeling about all of this.

Chris Orzechowski  34:17  
Absolutely. And that completely underscores this concept of enough. Also there's another another way to look at this, which is I call it looking in the rearview mirror. And it's really taking inventory of who you are and how you've shown up what you've accomplished over these years. You most often will see so much more than you remember. This is great also for growing your confidence as well. You know, we forget so much of what we've done because we're so focused on what we haven't, and we forget sometimes where we've come from.

Marsha Clark  34:49  
Yeah. And I look at that as the means by which we can then acknowledge how much power we really have and then deepen that understanding and then make the choice to use it.

Chris Orzechowski  35:03  
It's a really quick exercise, but I always am like, I'm like looking over my left shoulder back at that rearview mirror going, "Oh, I forgot that! I forgot that." And we don't give ourselves, like I said, near enough credit. I also heard this exercise or practice, from a mindfulness practitioner recently. And I really liked it. And she called it useless window gazing. And basically, it's taking a moment to simply mindlessly start to stare out a window for a while, without any purpose, without criticizing yourself for being unproductive during that time. And it's amazing how regenerating it can be. And I it made me start to think after I heard her talk about this, like, maybe those daydreamers back in school that we always used to give a hard time to, maybe they were on to something.

Marsha Clark  35:53  
Well, I agree, we often use the phrase slow down to speed up, right? Because whether you call it useless window gazing or, you know, daydreaming, there's value in that.

Chris Orzechowski  36:05  
Yeah, yeah, there really is. And, and there's value in sensing how this shows up, too, in the body. You know, a big part of my work, the integral combination of my coaching background is, is there's a somatic component to that. And with that, it allows you to really get an idea of how important this is by getting a sense of where it's showing up and what it's doing in the body. So, you know, for a moment, if you will just close your eyes. And what is that feeling of if you really had enough, if you really had enough, and it showed up in your body, what would that feel like? Like, I've given all I can do without going overboard. I studied enough for that test. I've shared exactly what I needed to say in that conversation. How does that feel? You may have heard the idea that if I can see it, I can do it? Well, I really believe it's much more like if I can feel it, if it's in my dharma, I can do it. And another powerful reflection along those lines is to answer this question. Art of being, or having enough, is blank, you know. Art of being or having enough is knowing when you've trained enough for that marathon. You know, I think we probably all have something. But I love that that sentence down and really circling back to this idea of courage and showing up and listening to what your body is saying as it relates to enough. Trust comes from the gut. Your intuition, it can tell you so much. But are we allowing ourselves to truly listen to it?

Marsha Clark  37:40  
Yeah, I often remember things through quotes and sayings, and you know, song titles. And there's a book called "Our Body Keeps the Score". And that's what I think this is, that it really does if we're in tune and in touch and listen.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  37:55  
Yep, Chris, this has been such a great reminder of how important it is to claim our power, get clear on what is enough for each of us, individually.

Marsha Clark  38:05  
Wendi, I completely agree. And I love that we were able to explore this as a reinforcement of what we talked about last week in our "Stand If You Ever..." episode. And what an incredible gift to women as they practice more self compassion, giving ourselves grace, I think, Chris, as you talked about an eradicating or quieting those misogynistic messages and voices that keep rolling around in our heads, wherever they may have come from. And so thank you, Chris, for helping us celebrate the National Women's History Month and also by giving our listeners this gift of freedom from those inner critic voices.

Chris Orzechowski  38:43  
Well, it has truly been my pleasure. And I'm so honored to be here with you both.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  38:48  
Yes. So Chris, do you have any final thoughts you'd like to leave our listeners with today?

Chris Orzechowski  38:53  
Actually, I do. Thank you. And I think I'm going to call it a sense of completeness on the subject that we talked about earlier. You really can't move into your higher purpose on top of an old story that you're not good enough. It's pretty much impossible to do that on old limiting beliefs. You can't transform your health and wellness in the belief that other people's needs have a higher priority than yours. You can't attract a partner who's a true equal on top of a belief that you're not valuable unless you're giving more than you're receiving. And you can't help build trust with others in work situations if you won't share how you're credible enough to help them. Because you are the only one who gets to choose. And that's both freeing and an opportunity to be accountable to your own personal power. And maybe, just maybe, it's enough.

Marsha Clark  39:43  
I just love, love that. I have nothing to add. I love, love, love it.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  39:47  
I know. I know. Chris, thank you so much for being here today. And Marsha, thank you for providing this space for such powerful learning that we had in this episode.

Marsha Clark  39:57  
You're welcome, Wendi, and I agree. What a powerful learning opportunity. And Chris, I really do appreciate your guiding us through another discovery process by recognizing, becoming aware of what is going on. We often hear from our program participants, clients, listeners, you've given me a framework and a name, right? Because so many times I just think it's me. And we're not alone in this. This is a common phenomena amongst women in particular. And so I love that you've given us that framework and guided us through it.

Chris Orzechowski  40:34  
And thank you for the chance to go deep again together, both of you.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  40:37  
Yes, yes, yes. Well, as a reminder to our listeners, as I said before, when Chris was here in January, you can find out more about Chris and her executive and integral coaching services at her website and I'm gonna spell it. And also look for Chris on LinkedIn, same name, Chris Orzechowski. Look for her and connect with her on LinkedIn and you'll find a lot of valuable tools there from her as well. Well, thank you all, listeners, for joining us today on our journey of authentic, powerful leadership. Please continue to download, subscribe and share this podcast from wherever you like to listen. Visit to keep up to date with Marsha, what else she's got going on in her world, and subscribe to her email list. And then finally, you can also get her book "Embracing Your Power" on the site.

Marsha Clark  41:42  
Thank you, Wendi. And thanks for helping us to get through another podcast with many topics and we could have gotten many directions. You keep us honest, so thank you for that. And again, I want to wish every woman who is listening to this and in this world, Happy National International Women's History Month and celebrating who we are. The world needs us. We need each other. We can support one another. And we are each and all enough. So as always, "Here's to women supporting women!"

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