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Podcast Transcript

Big Rocks

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:10  
Welcome to "Your Authentic Path to Powerful Leadership" with Marsha Clark. Join us on our journey where we're uncovering what it takes to be a powerful woman leader. All right Marsha, a couple episodes, it was dogs. This week it's rocks, big rocks. What kind of "Big Rocks" are we talking about today?

Marsha Clark  0:31  
Well, a big rock is a reference to a really powerful lesson in setting and maintaining priority.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:39  
Oh, those big rocks, actually boulders. I remember your telling the story before. I literally think of priorities now in terms of rock sizes, so this is going to be a great episode and very, very practical for our listeners.

Marsha Clark  0:56  
Well I think so too, Wendi, and it's going to focus on the concept of protecting our time and our priorities, with some increased awareness and, you know, deliberate choices, thoughtful choices, intentional choices. And it's we're going to share a couple of tools from the programs in the book.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:12  
Yep. So in the book, "Embracing Your Power", you literally present this entire Big Rocks activity in chapter six. So for those of you who are listening who have already purchased your book, go to chapter six. It's focused on setting and maintaining boundaries.

Marsha Clark  1:29  
Yeah, it I think it's such a powerful metaphor that really illustrates why it's so important to get clear on our priorities. And you know, it is partly related to last week's topic on the Bigger Yes, right. We can say no when there's a bigger yes burning inside, and related to a couple of future episodes on being able to say no confidently and yet another episode that we're going to do on setting boundaries. So they're all definitely connected.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:55  
Yeah. And I feel like these episodes are kind of little mini workshops, in some way sessions to help our leaders get through the content in the book step by step.

Marsha Clark  2:04  
Well, you're right. And they're just, you know, our episodes are designed with that, you know, educational intention in mind. And this is one of those and I've heard from, you know, several of our listeners that our podcast really brings the book's messages to life.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  2:20  
Absolutely. So not all of our listeners may be familiar with the actual Big Rocks story. So let's start with that first, and then work through the exercise. All right, so to offer some context, Marsha's story of the big rocks, or at least the version you refer to in your book was first shared by Dr. Stephen R. Covey in his book "First Things First" which was published back in 1996. And that was a follow up to his 1989 bestseller "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People." Correct?

Marsha Clark  2:57  
So you got all that right. And, you know, Dr. Covey was, he was the guru, when you think about the 80s, and 90s, and his books are still in bestseller status category in many ways, because we refer to them all the time. And so so thanks for providing that that context, if you will, for our listeners. And you might recall that we did talk about Dr. Covey's work in our last episode as well. So you know, it all, as I said, it all is connected. And it's going to become the theme with this week's story of big rocks.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  3:32  
Okay. So as I recall from the story, it starts with a professor, speaking to a group of college students in a lecture hall, something like that, correct?

Marsha Clark  3:41  
Yeah, that's the most frequently told version of the story. Now Covey himself used to use the illustration, actually doing live presentations. And I think there's even a video still floating around somewhere on the internet of him leading an audience member through the exercise. So it's easy to find with a quick Google search of Covey and big rocks, and I think that particular one was from '94. But I do want our listeners to know this is not old information. The story is as powerful today.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:10  
It certainly is. I have to go and find that video. I'm sure YouTube has it somewhere in the archives, but let's set the stage. So the professor is at the front of a room with a large table with two clear buckets or jars that are in the front of the room and a bunch of different sized rocks around on the table.

Marsha Clark  4:30  
That's right. Okay. So in and I'm going to read this straight from the book because it is it is Covey's material and I want to make sure I represent it well. "So the speaker placed a large wide mouth jar on the table. He then placed fist sized rocks into the jar until he could no longer fit any more in and he asked the class is the jar full? (Pretty simple request and exercise). And it seemed clear that since he could no no longer fit any more rocks into that jar, it surely was full. So a resounding yes from the students. And the speaker stated 'really?' And he then proceeded to bring out a pitcher of gravel and poured it into the jar. And he shook it a little bit, and it filled in between the spaces. And he asked the students again, if the jar was full. And this time, the class was a little more cautious, and there was a mixed set of responses. He then pulled out a pitcher of sand, and then water and filled up the jar. So by now the class was on to him. And he then asked the class, what was the point of the exercise. And one bright student, you know, one eager student raised their hand and said, the point is that no matter how full your schedule is, if you try really hard you can always fit more things into it". Isn't that what we all try to do?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  5:49  
Oh yeah. That sounds familiar.

Marsha Clark  5:52  
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so "No", the speaker says. "That's not the point. The truth this illustration teaches us is", and I want our listeners to really get this, "if you don't put the big rocks in first, you'll never get them in at all." And I shorten that a bit with my version of the leadership message is always put your big rocks in first.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  6:14  
Absolutely. It's such a great visual and also very true in real life.

Marsha Clark  6:19  
Well, it's one of the reasons I like using it because we can imagine a jar and rocks and gravel and sand. And it's hard to argue with, you know, the geometry of all of that, how you get everything to fit in. But you know, the the big rocks don't, don't simply don't fit into the jar, if you fill it first with all the little things in the sand and the gravel represent. And, you know, when I think about my daily to do list, your daily to do list, others to do lists, there's a lot of sand and gravel and water on there. And how much of our to do list has to do with big rocks.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  6:52  
So you have some really helpful questions and a tool in your book that helps the reader gain clarity around what their big rocks are. I'd love it if we can share that today and go into that with our listeners.

Marsha Clark  7:07  
Happy to. So first, I want everyone listening to consider that there are many key messages in this story. And the first one really gets to this question. Do you allocate your time, energy and focus on the objectives that really matter to you? And so I just want to read that again. Do you allocate your time (would your calendar reflect it), your energy and your focus on the objectives that really matter to you?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  7:40  
Yeah, this is a direct tie back to last week's episode on being able to say no to things when you're clear about your bigger yes.

Marsha Clark  7:49  
That's right. Exactly. So specifically, if we lean a little bit further into this metaphor, we can ask ourselves, can you take your personal and your professional objectives, both of them two different sets, and categorize them into what are your big rocks, what's your gravel, what's your sand, and what's your water? Oh, think about that for a moment, again, going back to that to do list versus objectives. And I'd really invite our listeners to do that right now. And maybe even pause this episode, and take a couple of minutes to capture what you consider to be your big rock priorities in your life.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  8:29  
Yeah, you do a really nice job in the book offering some directions on this big rocks activity. And so I think it would be really helpful to our listeners for you to share that here.

Marsha Clark  8:42  
Sure. So the instructions and questions in this section of the book. So let me talk about what those are. So it's pretty simple. I include a two column table for the reader to use. And it's simple for you to recreate even if you haven't, don't have the book in front of you. So just take a piece of paper, draw a line down the middle of the sheet. And on one side at the top, write personal and at the top of the other column write professional. And in the table that I use in class, and in the book, I give you seven rows. And I'm not suggesting that you have to come up with seven priorities, you know, for each column and that sort of thing. I limit it to seven, because I often think if we have such a long list of priorities, are they really priorities or are they just a to do list. So three to five is typical if you think over a 6, 9, 12 month period, think about it in that timeframe, and then write down those big priorities. So then the second step, as I've spoken about is what are those important goals that you want to ensure you accomplish in the next year? Be as precise as you can. And what I mean by that is don't just write 'family' in the personal column. Instead think about specifically what you might want to accomplish as it relates to your family. And I think about I want to be home for dinner every night is a priority to have dinner with my family. I want to attend my child's, you know, school programs and events. So it's not just family, right? So another way that I try to help people get clear about what some of those priorities might be is, if you fast forward to a year from now, and you're reflecting on your past year, what are the things that you did that will fill your heart with a sense of accomplishment? I feel good about it and will bring me joy, the fulfillment of it, you know, puts a smile on my face.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  10:47  
Exactly. And it seems like a simple exercise, but it's not easy. I mean, I it's, it's not easy, I don't think for any of us. Because other stuff, the gravel, the sand, the water, they seep in so fast, it's almost like an avalanche. And another thing also is that typically, the sand and the water seems to come from other people.

Marsha Clark  11:10  
Oftentimes it does, if we choose to accept it, right? That's true. This is why it's tied to setting boundaries, right? Yes, yes. So, you know, it is a simple concept, two columns on a piece of paper, write down some words, right? And yet, it's the words you write down that are the really hard part. Yeah, figuring out not only what those priorities are, and as our listeners do this I want you to notice, was it easier to write the professional than the personal? Or was it easier to write the personal or the professional? Because I've seen it happen, you know, both ways or I've seen people sit there and look at it and stare at that piece of paper for a very long time because they have no idea what their priorities are.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  11:47  
They're just so busy running.

Marsha Clark  11:51  
That's right! And so all of that is data and insight into where we are in identifying our big rocks. So, you know, at the end of the activity, you know, we've got some reflection questions. But just going through this exercise of identifying big rocks, you know, just writing them down is not enough. But you got to actually follow through on the plan as you move through and try to make them the reality.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  12:15  
Yep. And the questions are really helpful with creating additional clarity on your big rocks. I mean, the first question of what criteria did you use to designate your big rocks can really generate some deep self reflection, I mean. So I'm, as you're talking about this, something that I do on a weekly basis, pardon me, is think of what those three things are. But I always check in with on the personal side, you know, spouse, family, friends, but I also have specific to do's like I'm going, I have a list of friends that I keep track of here in my planner, and it is my priority every week to connect with three of them. I'm either going to have coffee, or I'm going to have a phone call, or I'm going to have an email. And that list is probably about 20 or 25 people, but I'm constantly going through that list, and I connect with three every week. So that's just one example that I'd like to share.

Marsha Clark  13:19  
Well and I'll give our listeners one of mine as well. One of my big rocks was spending more quality time with my grandchildren. Okay, and I'm, I think time is something that I become ever more aware of as I'm getting close to being 70 years old. And so I got really serious about my priorities and how am I going to live those. And so I retired my passport. I didn't retire, but I retired my passport in 2018. And it was no more international travel for business for me. (Wow). And that was a huge change because I'd been traveling around the globe for almost 35 years. And yet the bigger yes, for me, my love for my grandchildren and my mortality was part of my decision criteria to take that action.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  14:04  
Right. Then the other reflection questions that are outlined in the book and the activity are also powerful. The three that specifically deal with the other people in your life always makes me stop and go much deeper to consider the impact of my priority.

Marsha Clark  14:20  
Yeah and I'd like to share those with our listeners as well. So I've made my list. I've looked at it and I'm happy with it. Now if you shared your list with your family, in the case of the personal or your boss and I think it'd be great to share both your personal and your professional with your family and your boss, right, to show the whole person that you are, if you shared your list with them, would they agree that these were your big rocks? Could they see that you were living your life in that way? And and if not, how can you get clarity and alignment with the people in your life? And it again, family, friends, boss, neighbors, church people, whatever it might be, get alignment and clarity. And then the third question is asking yourself, what is the value to your boss, your team and your family or your loved ones if you were to allocate your time and energy to these big rocks. You know, I'm always getting questions asked about, you know, work life balance, work life balance, work life balance. And of course, there's no easy answer to any of that. But, you know, getting ever clearer about what do I get when I spend time, you know, with my family and loved ones? And what is the return? I had a, I was doing a speaking engagement yesterday, and one of the women said that something her mother told her that she still takes with her to this day, is take small, simple moments, and make big memories. And so being present, yes, being really present quality of time, with family. I laughingly say it's not that my family is all in the same room and we're all on our own electronic devices.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  16:06  
Exactly. Just a tiny screen.

Marsha Clark  16:10  
Yeah, that is not quality, family time.  Quality family time is having conversations, it's interacting in whatever way whether it's games or conversations or, you know, even if you're watching the same movie, having a conversation about the movie, right? Oh, look at that. I mean, whatever all those things are, that's the kind of thing that we when you look at priorities, what is the value of that as a priority?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  16:31  
So I love your quote that I have here, I'm gonna steal it from you. Sure. "If you want to know what someone really values, look at their calendar and look at their checkbook. Those reflect how we spend our money and our time."

Marsha Clark  16:47  
And I mean, look at that. I mean, yeah, so that's this part of the if someone were to look at my calendar, what would it tell them about me and what my priorities are? And if somebody looked at where I spent my money, you know, is it if a value is giving back philanthropically to, you know, some nonprofit world that or church or, you know, something in the community, would my checkbook reflect that, and maybe I can't do the check equity, but maybe I can do the sweat equity. And then would my calendar, you know, reflect time where I'm volunteering or doing something timewise to support something that I really believe in, that's a priority and important to me. That's the checkbook and the calendar.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  17:28  
Right. And there's just another point that I want to make as, as people are doing this and identifying what their big rocks and then their gravel and their sand and their waters are, that this isn't something that you just do once and you set it and forget it because the other people and their priorities and life will get in the way. And so I would just like to offer our listeners that, you know, I take time to look at this on a weekly basis. Is this still a priority for me, because life can shift things around. And so I think it's important that our listeners clarify those questions that aren't intended to think that other people dictate their big rocks. I mean, that's the point. And especially if you come back to it on a consistent basis, then you're making sure that you're staying true to your values.

Marsha Clark  18:23  
You know, Wendi, it's not, you know, your big rocks, and me making sure that you get your big rocks done is not at the risk of me not getting my big rocks done. It's not your bigger yes that I'm stepping on, it's my bigger yes. You know, the questions are intended, that we align in all of this to do a couple of things. The first one is basically a reality check and where we're checking in with others closest to me, those who know me best and know my, you know, my routine, if you will, who see me operating on a regular best basis and who could lovingly non judgmentally tell me basically that I'm full of horse hockey when I say X, Y or Z is a priority for me but the reality is that I never do anything to live out that claim. So that's the reason we're talking with others around us, not to wait for them to tell us what ours are. They're holding us accountable for or am I choosing to take actions and do things that support them. And you know, my big rocks, and you know we often add up until now, are a reflection of my lived reality and not my aspiration. So I don't just put them out there and hope and wish I'm gonna go make them happen. So I might say that being healthy or working out or getting sleep or volunteering more or whatever all that is, is a big rock but the reality is that it's a rock that never actually makes it into the jar because the jar is too full of sand and gravel and water. So you know my jar is filled with so many things that I can never quite get to that big rock. And that's where friends, family, boss, loved ones might be able to offer me insight into a blind spot I might have, or maybe just ask me a question. So,  I probably told this story on one of our episodes, but I lived close to the EDS headquarters, and we'd be out running errands on a Saturday. And Dale would just say to me in his very dry, witty way when we would drive by the EDS building, he would say, 'Well, look, Marsha, that building is still standing and you're not in it'. And so it was a reminder to me that I didn't have to be at work all the time, I didn't have to be totally consumed. That building was going to be standing whether I was in it or not. Life was gonna go on whether I was working or not. Life was gonna go on whether I got that 13th thing on my to do list done today or not. And we need some of those reminders.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  20:55  
Exactly. And so that's going to reinforce what I'm about to say, which is why it's important to ask for alignment from others about your big rocks. Because if somebody can point out that my priorities are totally out of alignment with what I'm saying are the most important people or activities or things in my life, then I'm either going to have issues with those relationships or my commitment to those what I'm saying are my big rocks will falter and wither away.

Marsha Clark  21:26  
Well that's right. And it's the classic story of partners, whether they are life partners or business partners who have competing priorities, right? Because that happens too. Your big rocks aren't my big rocks. And that's why it's important to get clarity around each other's priorities for everyone who has a direct impact and or is impacted by or, and or has an expectation of my time and my energy and the resources I'm willing to put into it. And I also want to add that if you want if you find yourself with competing priorities, here's what I do. And I found it extremely helpful. Ask yourself, What will matter most one year from today. And you know, what I often hear what I'm finding myself, and what I hear from others is that a big rock, if I work on that, you know, versus three sand and gravel and water issues, that big rock is going to be much more memorable. And it's going to have a bigger impact than the gravel or sand item that happens to be on my today's to do list.

Right. And so the other reflection questions that are asked in this activity are more related to accountability and timing. Right?

Yeah, they are. So here's another three questions. What are the next steps that you need to take to activate your list to make it happen, to make it real? The second question is, how are you going to hold yourself accountable? So, you know, it's one thing for some of us, we love making checklists and being able to check things off. So rather than having a to do list that's all gravel, sand and water, can we just have a separate list of big rocks? Can we keep it front and center? I've had people you know, tell me that they have a cork board in their home office or they have a whiteboard in their work office and they'll write them on up there. And they'll say big rocks and have them listed. I had another person tell me they literally went out and got a wide mouth jar, put this size rocks in it and and put on the rock (labeled) what it is. So you know, and others, they put screen savers on with big rocks and superimposed what those were labeling them. So a constant reminder is what the message is there about how they're going to hold themselves accountable. They also had accountability partners both at work and at home to review the list of big rocks and how am I doing? How am I doing on this? And then that leads to the third question which is, how often do you want to review it because if they're big rocks, they're often not just a, I can spend an hour on and they're done. Big rocks are big rocks because they're big, right? They're usually longer term or incorporating new ways, new habits, new patterns into our lives. So how often do I want to check on that? And I will tell you, for me, really, at the beginning of every year I go in and I look at and I say what are my big rocks for this year? And it's just another tool in my toolkit that guides me in how I choose to allocate the time and the energy that I'm going to expend that year.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  24:33  
Yeah, I like the idea of something like this, doing something like this much more than setting new year's resolutions. I've just given up on that. This seems much more relevant, targeted, task, you know, you know, habit building.

Marsha Clark  24:49  
Yeah, I want this to be real, you know. I think New Year's resolutions become kind of a joke because we know that by February 1st we will have forgotten what we said. Right. And we haven't lost 42 pounds that we all of us. So we don't. And I also like it because we don't have to wait for January 1st to do you know, there's not this artificial time we can make it happen whenever we're ready to make it happen. So it's a process of reflecting that we can do all year round. And you know, one of the things that I say in the book, and I think it's worth repeating for our listeners here is that this list is not etched in stone. Even with the best planning efforts, things happen that require you to make adjustments and shift. Give yourself grace. Don't let the little things distract you. And make sure that the adjustments you make are warranted for significant reasons. Don't just use an excuse. Identifying your decision criteria of why this is a big rock can help you do that. And if you fall off, don't think, Oh, I failed and I can't you know, and I'm doomed forever. Just get right back on. I didn't do it today, but I'm going to do it tomorrow.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  26:05  
Right. Right. I love that advice. Giving yourself grace. Maybe that needs to be in the next set of magnets. That and don't let the sand distract you.

Marsha Clark  26:13  
Well that's right. I think you know, we're always adding to our magnets. And which makes me think I probably ought to explain to our listeners in case they haven't heard that you and I are talking about magnets, so we do have some merch or merchandise. Merch is what my seven year old grandson, I got Merch! So you know, we've mentioned them before what some of our program participants call the Marsha-isms are phrases that I use all the time in classes, and we've made some fun magnets out of them so that people can use those. And I've had several people tell me that they use them in team meetings, pick one out and talk about what it means to you. And then you know, we just keep rotating those kinds of things. So that it's a way to not only reinforce the learning that the magnet represents or the leadership principle or message, but it's also a way of me getting clear about what those mean to me.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  27:06  
Of course, I mean, it's a fun and quick little reminder right there in front of you. I mean, so if anyone wants to check them out, they're on Marsha's website at in the store section. So shameless plug.

Marsha Clark  27:07  
That's right. I was going to say, we're plugging we have a commercial, our own commercial in the middle of this. But anyway.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  27:26  
That's all right. So this seems like the perfect place for us to start wrapping up today. So as you think about big rocks, Marsha, what would you say are the top takeaways from this episode?

Marsha Clark  27:38  
Well, the world around us will always be trying to fill up our buckets or our jars with small, smaller, you know, gravel, rock sand kinds of issues. And if we're not careful, we're going to look up one day and realize that we've been living our lives, you know, based on other people's priorities. So, you know, lesson number one, or takeaway number one is to get clear on your own big rocks. They're your priorities. And think of them in terms of what will fill your heart with a sense of accomplishment at some future point. So that's one. The second is to start working backward from that future point. How do you need to begin allocating your time so that you're protecting your big rocks and truly making room for them first, when it comes to how you spend your time and energy. So it's truly treating them as a priority. And takeaway number three is to establish an accountability plan to hold yourself accountable as well as enlisting the help of others to make sure you're sticking to your priorities. You know, at the end of the day, this is not something that you can delegate to anyone else. It's your work to do. You are the person that's ultimately responsible for your own use of your time and your energy. And I would just say you're worth it. We are worth it to use our time and energy, our resources, and we need to protect those wisely and fiercely.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  29:14  
Hmm. Wise and fierce. That might be another magnet, that might be another magnet. Well I like to do this every once in a while. I'm going off script. Before we close out completely I would love for Marsha to share what her top two (I'm just gonna ask for two) two big rocks are, her personally, professional and personal life.

Marsha Clark  29:37  
So professional, and you've heard these because we've talked about them before, is a big rock for me to do is to sell 25,000 copies of my book. And I have no timeline associated with that. But I feel like that is a saturation point that you know when you consider there are seven and a half billion people in the world, 25,000 doesn't sound like a lot. And yet we're at, you know, 3500 or so. So we got a long ways to go. But that is a big rock that's going to be a big rock for quite some time to come. And, you know, the other is, I guess the next thing I'd want to say is writing books two and three is also now. And these, again, are big rocks that span over time. You can call them goals, you can call them objectives, but I am allocating my time accordingly. (You see it on your calendar.) That's right, to do these things, because I live by my calendar and if it's not on my calendar, it doesn't get done. So I work with, you know, my left and right hands Misty and Natalie, and we make sure that I have the time to do that. And whether it be marketing campaigns, social media posts, speaking engagements, new programs, whatever all those things might be, are all, the book sales is a measure of the accessibility which is the big headline.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  31:02  
Exactly, exactly.

Marsha Clark  31:03  
So that's on the professional side. On the personal side, (people who know me are gonna laugh when I say this), but I really want to slow down dramatically after the third book is published. So putting structures in place that ease me into that, (replicating yourself). Well, part of it is bringing in associates, part of it is saying I want three day weekends. Part of it is not doing professional appointments on Saturday and Sunday. You know, all of those things are a part of easing me into the retirement life because I'm a high energy, high get-it-done kind of person. And so I am, retirement has not appealed to me in the way some people have done it, because it's like, I don't want to sit around and read all day, I don't want to work in the garden. You know, I want to be out doing things. It's different things, right. And clearly the other personal with three grandchildren, I want to be active and engaged in their lives exactly in ways that they have good memories about their Mimi.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  32:14  
That's powerful. That's powerful. Well, Marsha, thank you for working us through these activities from "Embracing Your Power", the Big Rocks' activities. You know, I just feel so lucky I get to be here in the recording studio with Marsha and get these weekly booster shots, if you will, of Marsha and I'm so glad that, you know, our listeners get to have access to you on a weekly basis also.

Marsha Clark  32:40  
Well, Wendi, you're a great partner and companion for me on this journey. You're my buddy. Yeah, you know, I mean, it may sound a little crazy to our listeners, but you know, we record these and then it's weeks later that they actually get dropped for our listeners to hear. And so, but I go back and listen to them every single time and I get something I know you're like I said it's one of those where I go, You know what? And typically it's because I've either just had a coaching conversation about it, or I've got a client that struggling with something and I go, Oh, you know what, I need to bring that to them. So it's always fascinating to me how I hear people say, Oh, this session came right at exactly the right time, right? And I just want to say, don't they all? Yes, it does for me, as well as for many of the people that I work with and I hope that's what this podcast can be for everybody.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  33:35  
Well, thank you all listeners for joining us today on this journey of authentic, powerful leadership. Please download, subscribe and share this podcast with your friends. And visit Marsha's website at for links to all the tools that we talked about today. Chapter Six is the Big Rocks chapter and subscribe to Marsha's email list. And please go out and purchase her book if you haven't already, "Embracing Your Power".

Marsha Clark  34:05  
Yeah, thank you, Wendi, as always, and I do there's a lot of these episodes that are going to be around setting and maintaining boundaries because there's lots of different facets to that topic, this being one of them. And I do hope that you'll listen not only to this episode, but you'll tie it in to some of the others that we're doing because I think collectively, those can help you get your head wrapped around this huge concept and topic of setting and maintaining boundaries. So thank you for joining us today. And as always, we'd love to hear from you. And if there's anything we can do to support you let us know. And also as always, here's to women supporting women!

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