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Podcast Transcript

Be Our Guest

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:10  
Welcome to "Your Authentic Path to Powerful Leadership" with Marsha Clark. Join us on this journey where we're uncovering what it takes to be a powerful woman leader. Well Marsha, welcome back.

Marsha Clark  0:24  
Thank you.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  0:24  
We are halfway through our six part series on Managing Conflict and Enriching Relationships. And I know that we both hope that our listeners have been following along in this series, and have already heard the first two episodes, but in case they haven't, let's set the stage.

Marsha Clark  0:43  
Thank you, first, Wendi. And I think that's a great idea to do a bit of review. And we do hope that if you haven't listened to those that you will go back and listen to this because it's a more complete view of all of this. So the information that we're bringing you is based on the Thomas/Killman model. And for most people in the world of performance management and leadership development, this Thomas/Killman model is pretty much the foundational standard for identifying what each of our preferred modes or our options of managing conflict. And Thomas and Killman were researchers in the 70's who recognized that most conflict responses fall along two axes in these varying degrees of assertiveness for one axes and cooperativeness on the other axes, and you know, looking at typical low to high. And these two axes set up the parameters for five different approaches to conflict. And they (the five) are 1) avoiding 2)  competing, 3) accommodating 4) collaborating and 5) compromising.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  1:52  
Okay, so in chapter nine, for those of you following along in the book "Embracing Your Power", you offer a deep dive into the Thomas/Killman model, and you add an extra filter of looking at conflict through the lenses of relationships and results. And specifically, you explained that a high focus on assertiveness, therefore prioritizing our needs over others, whoever the other might be, reflects an emphasis on achieving results, right. And so when someone is higher on the cooperativeness scale, their focus is more on the relationship or ensuring that the other person or persons are getting their needs met. Correct?

Marsha Clark  2:39  
That's all exactly right. Very nice review. Thank you.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  2:42  
Okay, perfect, perfect. So today, we'll be hanging out in that area that's low on the assertiveness scale, but high on the cooperativeness end of the model, and focusing on the specific conflict response mode of accommodating where it's all about the relationship. So today, we're inviting you to "Be Our Guest" right, as we explore the accommodating approach to managing conflict. And each of these conflict approaches from the Thomas Killman model has its own tagline that offers a little insight into the spirit behind the approach. So the tagline for "accommodate" is...

Marsha Clark  3:23  
Well, and I'm going to tell you, but before I share that tagline, I want to be sure that everyone really understands this context for the accommodate response mode within the model. (Okay.) So it's most appropriate when the relationship is more important than the result, and meaning that I'm not only willing but eager to place your needs or wants above my own. And I think that's a really important point. And some people are going to acquiesce and give in to others begrudgingly giving in or by, you know, heaping large scoops of resentment, you know, mixed in with their accommodating. But the true spirit behind accommodating is that we are doing it with no strings attached and with no expectation of immediate reciprocity. So I just want to make that really important distinction here.(Okay) And so it is in that spirit that the tagline for accommodate, I think it really works, is that "it would be my pleasure". And this it would be my pleasure. I always, when I teach this, I always imagine and in fact, do a little curtsy as I utter these words and it represents the sentiment that you are fully accepting the position, decision or recommendation of another person, and there's no pushback and there's no second guessing.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  4:43  
So the invitation to "Be Our Guest" truly is authentic and genuine. And while you're imagining a curtsy, I keep thinking of all the dancing dishes and plates and the candelabra from "Beauty and The Beast". And doesn't that song start with "Be Our Guest"?

Marsha Clark  4:59  
Ah it does, yes, yes, yes. You know, the characters from "Beauty and The Beast" really do I think exemplify this deep desire to be supportive and accommodating. And you know, that song could be the anthem for our accommodators of the world and, and I want to say that these words speak to the spirit very directly. So I'm not going to sing this because that would not be a good thing for anyone to hear, but here are the words, the lyrics: "Be our guest. Be our guest. Put our service to the test. Tie your napkin round your neck, Cherie. And we provide the rest. Soup du jour, hot hors d'oeuvres why we only live to serve."

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  5:38  
Oh my god. Yes, I'm just seeing it. I'm seeing all the little cups and saucers dancing. Yeah, I thought you were gonna break out into song there for a second.

Marsha Clark  5:46  
Almost! Almost! So if you'll indulge one more relevant reference. There's actually another section in the song that also I think says so much about the heart of the accommodator. It's that "Life is so unnerving for a servant who's not serving. He, dare I say she, is not whole without a soul to wait upon."

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  6:16  
Now, I'm kind of wishing we had theme songs for all the conflict modes because that, life is so unnerving for a servant who's not serving.

Marsha Clark  6:25  
Is that not the perfect line?

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  6:26  
Yeah. And I'm just wow, I'm having people flash through my mind also.

Marsha Clark  6:32  
Yeah, well, and you know, it does make me want also to have songs for all. We'll work on that. Yeah. And I do you know, because we always want to give credit where so much of our great content has come from, and so I want to give credit to the lyricist Howard Ashman and the composer Alan Menken for such an epic song that in our world is about accommodating.That may not have been exactly what they were going for, but it certainly works for us.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  6:59  
Nice, nice. Well, I'm sure as is true with all the other conflict modes, accommodating also has situations where it's the most effective response. And so you include three specific examples in your book.

Marsha Clark  7:13  
Yes. And so the numerous times when we're shifting our energy towards prioritizing the needs or goals of the other party makes sense is especially when the relationship is an important one. So the person on the other side of this conversation means a lot to us. So the three situations that I highlight in the book where accommodating is the quote, unquote, "right tool" to use include 1) showing reasonableness and creating goodwill (those go together)  2) developing performance, and 3) retreating or giving in.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  7:49  
Okay, let's dig into that first one showing reasonableness and or creating goodwill.

Marsha Clark  7:55  
Alright. So showing reasonableness and creating goodwill go hand in hand. Let's say that you and I are starting a new relationship and we want to get it off on the right track. If the outcome is less important to me than building a strong relationship with you, then that would be an appropriate use of accommodating. We'll do it your way. And I can let my way go.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  8:20  
Okay. So I appreciate that you're highlighting the importance of creating goodwill. I know or I remember something from some basic accounting classes in college that goodwill has an actual value that can be calculated when determining an organization's overall worth. So there's a business driver to actually building and maintaining goodwill.

Marsha Clark  8:44  
Well, that's right, Wendi, and as a business, you can actually quantify the value of goodwill or positive relationships that you've established with your customers. And, you know, I would say that on an individual level different than that business organization level, when I accommodate you I have the opportunity to build goodwill and enhance my personal brand, as a person to person brand, with you as well.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  9:09  
Yeah, yeah. And you know, in today's divisive world where so many people are fully committed to only getting their way, the act of being reasonable and willingly setting aside what I would want should go a long way to building and maintaining a relationship.

Marsha Clark  9:26  
Oh, how I long for the day. Why can't we all just get along? Oh, yes. All right. So I digress. And, you know, and it's about even repairing relationships that might have been damaged along the way.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  9:37  
Exactly, exactly. So let's move to situation number two where accommodating makes the most sense as a conflict response mode, developing performance. What's the connection there?

Marsha Clark  9:48  
Yeah. So as a leader, I think we would all recognize it's crucial that I recognize the importance of developing my team members, right. It's my job to do that. And one way to help people learn and grow is to give them some independence and a bit of autonomy to do some things their own way to make and take some calculated risks and to even make mistakes. So I may have to give up on having some tasks done a certain way, you know. I may need to accommodate in order to create an environment where learning and continuous improvement will thrive. And I ask myself, this is important in the developing performance, how can I be flexible, and accommodate their way of completing this task? So not only am I increasing opportunities, opportunities to develop my team by accommodating these ideas and approaches, I'm opening myself up to learning as well. I hadn't thought of doing it that way. And when I can let go of my way, and really fully lean into someone else's, I'm gonna learn a lot.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  10:55  
Yeah, I love the learning perspective, that lens, and I hadn't thought of it that way. So the third situation you mentioned in the book is retreating or giving in, but it's a little bit more deliberate than just backing down.

Marsha Clark  11:11  
Yeah, I can see why you would say that. You know, in this particular example, it's typically the most effective response when you've worked hard to implement what you thought would be a good solution or idea or recommendation. But then you realize that your recommendation isn't going to be the best one or isn't going to work after all, and the other person's idea simply has more merit than yours. And you're now going to retreat, give in, do it the other person's way. And in that scenario, you're showing humility and learning. And those are attributes that build trust and reflect a willingness to incorporate new ideas, new thinking, new possibilities, while also recognizing the contributions of, you know others towards an effective and productive solution. And do you remember the Saturday Night Live Gilda Radner when she played Roseanne Roseannadanna? Yes. And she would go on these rants and raves.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  12:13  
We are so dating ourselves.

Marsha Clark  12:16  
That was the beginning and it's 30 years ago or whatever. Yeah. But at the end of one of her rants, then someone would say, well, it doesn't mean that it means this and she would go, "Nevermind". And that's what this reminds me of.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  12:27  
Yeah, yeah. But it's not admitting you're wrong when you accommodate.

Marsha Clark  12:31  
Well, not necessarily. So we have, we may both have accurate information, or even valid suggestions to solve a problem or, you know, take advantage of an opportunity or whatever. But you decide that you're going to yield to that other person, you know, it's like yielding on the freeway, you're letting somebody without reservation, and you're going to accept their idea or approach, or whatever the conflict or dispute might be about.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  12:56  
Right. And you know, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking of so many of my friends whose brains are scrambling right now to process this idea of retreating or giving in when they think they're right.

Marsha Clark  13:09  
Oh, I know, I know those people. We all know those people. Yeah. So what you just described is the crux, quite honestly, of a majority of my coaching goals. And, you know, I'll offer one of my favorite sayings here for our listeners, who might also be resisting this idea.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  13:24  
Okay, another magnet. I'm hearing it coming.

Marsha Clark  13:27  
Yes, perhaps, but we'll work on that. But the saying is, "Would you rather be right or would you rather be effective?' And there will be times in these, you know, what might be described as contentious conversations when you're both right. And the relationship matters to you. And so in that case, yielding to the other person's rightness might be the most effective move in the long run. And we can be right all day long. But it doesn't mean we're being effective.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  14:00  
Yes, absolutely. And for sure, I'm seeing a new magnet. So let's think about that. But I'm also seeing the connection between some of the accommodating skills you've listed in the book and the situations you've shared.

Marsha Clark  14:13  
Yeah, there most definitely are those connections. And the three skills that I highlight in the book are 1) selflessness 2) that ability to yield (the thing I referenced earlier), and 3) is obeying orders. And the first two were absolutely aligned with the situations we just spoke about. And so again, what I write in the book is that selflessness is about forgoing your desires, and being readily willing to do it another person's way. You value your relationship as more important than getting your way and getting your way is ego driven, narcissism, naive, immature or all of those things. Right? Right. And then the other related skill is the ability to yield. And, you know, again, I always think about driving, you know, in the city and whether it's yielding to someone entering the ramp on a, you know, some sort of interstate highway or at a four way stop, or whatever, or these new roundabouts that are coming in to Texas, or letting even letting a car get in front of you during heavy traffic. And, you know, it can even be yielding that prize parking spot when trying to get in and out of a particular location. I mean, that takes a lot to be willing to accommodate that. And that willingness and ability to yield in the situation is something, it's a good metaphor for what we have to do sometimes in these differences.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  15:41  
Right. Practicing selflessness and being able to yield were both examples of skills from the scenarios that you shared, but the third skill you mentioned in the book is obeying orders. And I remember that one surprising me the first time I heard you use it.

Marsha Clark  16:00  
Yeah because you know, I don't obey orders. Or I might challenge the orders or so why are we doing this? Yes, it does catch people off guard a bit. And I think for many of us who didn't spend time in the military or maybe as part of a strict school or home environment, we flinch when we think of this idea of just getting along, you know, salute and obey orders kind of thing. But when you think about it, we do it on a pretty regular basis. So again, we need to broaden our definition of what that is. So obeying orders often shows up when we're talking or working in a hierarchy of positional power, which most of us are in that place. And your boss asked you to do it this way, your customer asked you to do it this way. And you choose to comply with their recommendation, their idea or their solution because you're far more interested in building or maintaining a positive relationship and even building the trust that you can count on me to do what you're asking me to do more than you're, you know, interested in getting your way. So even at home, you know, if anyone's ever found themselves contorted into, you know, in their little two foot Little Tikes plastic chairs, you know, choking from a molting feather boa and drinking you know, room temperature unsweetened apple juice from a Dixie cup. I mean, you know, (I'm being dramatic) with the pink straw, because that's what your favorite three year old wants to play, is that Tea Party, then, you know, the value of taking orders, and I use that a little tongue in cheek. But you know, how many of us when reading books at night and we're tired and we just want the child to go to sleep and we skip page four in the book and you know, they catch us on it every single time and you know, you are following orders and you know in happy deference to the, in this case the one who's in charge, which is the three year old girl.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  17:52  
Yes, yes. My dad has nightmares about Green Eggs and Ham because he would try to skip over it. He's like, Oh my God, just gonna poke my eye out with a fork if I have to read this again. Yes. So we've explored the three skills tied to accommodating but I think it's just as helpful to share what accommodating isn't, and you give some great examples of that in the book. And the first one you share is that accommodating isn't declaring. We'll do it your way this time and my way next time. You call that scorekeeping. Let's talk about that.

Marsha Clark  18:31  
So I have to tell you when I first started teaching this, so it goes back 20 plus years, these were surprises that came up to me in the class. Well, if I accommodate, but then I do this, or I say that or whatever and I and, you know, I, in the moment, I said, Well, no, that's not what that is. That's, and in this case, you know, my way this time you're, that's keeping score. So therefore it's scorekeeping. (Right) And you know, the second one that I offer in the book is that it's not about begrudgingly doing it another person's way and then when it doesn't work, saying 'told you so', you know. I call that... that's just a self righteous, you know, I was the smarter one in this. And again, it's feeding your ego, it's not building a relationship. And then the last thing that accommodating is not is it's not about doing it the other person's way and then you undermine or sabotage that approach to ensure that it doesn't work. And, you know, I see that as just mean spirited, evil dare I say, depending on how egregious the sabotaging may be, or you know, being passive aggressive smiling to your face, but I'll show you or told you! Yeah, that's just not accommodating.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  19:47  
Right. Yeah. Important clarifiers that I hope no one listening to this podcast would consider but yet you know, it does happen. So let's shift to your examples of the consequences that happen when someone overuses the accommodator conflict response mode.

Marsha Clark  20:05  
Yeah, I list three different consequences with overuse of accommodating. One, our ideas get little action because we're always doing it the other person's way. I have restricted influence because it's never my approach. And there's a loss of contribution. Well, and let me just say, ideas get little action and restricted influence are one. Second is loss of contribution because I'm not offering up. And the third is anarchy.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  20:34  
Anarchy. Okay. I mean, the first two, ideas get little action/restricted influence, I see that. I see loss of contribution. Anarchy. Let's talk about the first one first.

Marsha Clark  20:49  
All right. We'll do this in order, you know, so that our listeners can follow along. But, you know, I use getting little action or me having restricted influence, if you're always accommodating everyone else, right, - their recommendations, their ideas, their solutions,- then your ideas are gonna get little action because they're not, even if they're heard, they're not implemented. And therefore, you have very little influence in the organization. And then again, when you're constantly accommodating everyone else in their recommendations and solutions, your best work really is withheld - your best work, your best thinking, your best ideas. So that loss of contribution, and again it goes back to if I always take that step back, I may feel overlooked or undervalued and I've got to decide, though, with that intentionality if the relationship then it's not about me feeling overlooked, or unvalued. I've chosen this because the relationship was more important to me.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  21:52  
Right. And I stay quiet if you will. So as a strategy, as a strategy, not a default. Right. Right. So not great consequences for anyone. And so speaking of other terrible consequences, let's talk about anarchy.

Marsha Clark  22:06  
Yeah, this is one where I usually have a flip chart and I draw. So it's, you know, an anarchy certainly isn't a word that most leaders would want to be associated with their performance, but it's almost guaranteed when leaders are are over accommodators. And so when leaders are trying to get the organization, think about our role as leaders getting people marching in the same direction, right. So we're all marching to the same tune toward the same shared goal, or objective or whatever that might be. So when I draw this arrow, you know, it's a block arrow, and I put all the arrows with them representing people all going in the same direction. And when the leader, though, is accommodating to everyone else, and everybody has a different idea, everybody has a different point of view, or everybody has a different opinion, then I start drawing arrows of a different color with the arrows going in every different direction. And that gets a, it's a lot more difficult to get people marching towards that shared goal or objective if everybody's accommodating everybody else. So when you've got arrows pointing in all directions, you basically have a culture of chaos and confusion. It's not power of unity, or shared vision, or that kind of thing. And that is anarchy. I often think about it as it's when, the phrase, "when the inmates are running the asylum."

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  23:31  
Yes, yes. So I, you know, I had never thought about the potential negative consequence of too much accommodating until we studied this model. Because accommodating, that sounds like okay, everyone's going to like you and you're going to get along with everyone. But I can also see burnout being a consequence of accommodating because even if you're happily doing all of these things for others, at some point, you're doing all these things for others, and that's going to catch up to you.

Marsha Clark  24:01  
That's, it's a great add, Wendi. And, you know, and it doesn't just relate to an individual. Even at an organizational level, if your business culture, your organizational culture is one of always accommodating others, you can burn out the whole team or even burn out the organization because it can collapse under its own weight. And you know, I would say to our listeners, if you find yourself in that situation, go back and listen to our managing boundaries episode.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  24:29  
Yes. Exactly. It was in mid July and it was called "NO is a Complete Sentence."

Marsha Clark  24:34  
So you're always ready with the reference. I like that. I had, and you know, it is an important tie back and important thing for those who have trouble saying 'no'.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  24:44  
Yes, exactly. I've listened to it several times. So the last element we have in exploring with each of these conflict modes is the underuse of the approach. So what's happening when someone rarely or never accommodates others?

Marsha Clark  25:01  
Yeah, and as with each of these response modes, underuse can have the unintended consequences regardless or I should say regarding not only our desired outcomes but also quite honestly our reputation as an effective leader. And so, the underuse can, if I never accommodate, lack of rapport, low morale. I can be seen as unyielding, also known as stubborn, and I can be seen as a poor team player. And so if you go back and look at these one at a time, the lack of rapport and again, not to overstate the obvious, but if you if you never are willing to accommodate or do it another person's way, then building rapport with any of the other people, the peers, the boss, the team, the customer, you know, and even family members or neighbors, or whatever it may be, that lack of rapport will eventually impede your ability to build a strong relationship. And then if you don't have strong relationships, then you can create an environment or a culture of low morale, which is the second one, right, it leads to that. And, and that those are two major consequences of never or rarely accommodating another.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  26:17  
Right. So the other two consequences that you list in the book could both be really damaging to your personal brand. So the third one is seen as unyielding. And I completely agree that people will dread working with someone who is stubborn, unwilling to accommodate or listen to anyone else. And you made me laugh when you added that no matter what leadership literature you may research, "stubborn" will not show up as a desired leadership attribute.

Marsha Clark  26:50  
I've certainly never seen it. I've read a lot of those books.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  26:53  
Exactly. I mean, stubbornness does not equal leadership.

Marsha Clark  26:58  
Yeah. And you know, the other consequence when you are stubborn and you don't build rapport and it always has to be your way, you can then be seen as a poor team player. And we all know that most of us get evaluated even in performance reviews on being a good team player, not a good team player. And you can be seen as this poor team player because of the contentious relationships whether it be with peers, boss, customer, colleagues, whatever it may be. And we all know that it's hard. None of us work as an individual island. (Right) Everything that gets done today is accomplished by working as a team.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  27:38  
Right, right. Well, Marsha, before we wrap up I'd like to share the reflection questions that you have at the end of each conflict section in the book because I find them to be so helpful to laser focus my attention on each particular conflict mode.

Marsha Clark  27:55  
I think it's a great idea.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  27:56  
Okay, perfect. So here's what you need to do first. Think of a time when you've accommodated someone else in a conflict. Was that accommodating an effective strategy in the situation? Why or why not. And then think about a situation where you're currently right now accommodating somebody else in a conflict. Is that a strategic choice or is that a default response? And then Marsha, I want you to add one more for anyone who now realizes that they are underusing 'accommodate' as a strategy.

Marsha Clark  28:31  
Yeah, you know, what questions are they asking themselves is what I would add to that and in, you know, in what way has perhaps the underuse of  accommodating impacted your ability to develop your people or even yourself to learn in those regards. And, you know, sometimes conflicts are between a person to person. So I'm going to go back for just a moment to the creating goodwill and developing relationships and so on and so forth. Sometimes maybe you and I have a history and so we're trying to get that back and repaired. And, you know if I'm reflecting on those moments, or maybe it's that our bosses don't get along and we're trying to repair that or maybe it's our departments are contentious. So I want people to think bigger and broader when they think about examples of when accommodating could be useful, not only in the one on one relationship (right) but in the team to team, the department to department, even company to provider, company to customer. I mean, think about where those accommodating places are well placed.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  29:51  
Right, without scorekeeping (yeah, yeah) which I think is probably more difficult when you start wrangling the cats if you will into, you know, one team accommodating another especially if that's under two different departmental heads you might get into, there might be a tendency for that to fall into a scorekeeping type of mode. But um...

Marsha Clark  30:14  
And I'll give one other. Imagine yourself, your company, in the middle of a continuum. And to the left side is the customer. And we've all heard the saying, "The customer is always right". No, they're not. And so the clarity of knowing when to accommodate or not or to just take it at face value of the customer is always right versus let me tell you some things I've thought about where what you're suggesting might actually work against what you've told me in earlier conversations you're trying to accomplish, for example. So think about that. And then over here, on the right side, if I'm in the middle, customer left side, vendors or providers or partners in this. You know, having been a vendor providing information technology services for a lot of years, I had customers that treated me like a vendor, and I had customers that treated me like a partner. And so even to partner with vendors says I care about what you think, I want you to win, I want me to win. We're going to accommodate what you want sometimes, or your approach sometimes, that we're going to accommodate what I want sometimes. And so thinking about ourselves even in the middle of that, from a more organization to organization, I think broadens our thinking around how accommodating can play out in our day in and day out responsibility.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  31:38  
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I love that accommodate, yet again I'm just going to reinforce this is a tool in the toolkit. (Yes) And I even though this episode, I'm looking at the timer, we're about half of the episode that we were previously as far as time goes. But I think that there's a lot to think about here with our listeners using accommodating as a way to develop my people also. And but yet consider the potential for anarchy if I'm overly accommodating. So I love this idea of accommodating in order to develop my people. It's reminded me of one of our previous very recent episodes, and forgive me, I can't remember which one, but about...

Marsha Clark  32:29  
Leadership is not a do it yourself job.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  32:31  
Yes, thank you. Leadership is not a DIY job, and how allowing you know your people, accommodating your people with a hey, why don't you try this first on your own? That's another way to look at accommodating. It's not always just in a conflict situation. But this series is about conflict. So anyway. In that context, yes.  So thank you, Marsha, for walking us through the nuances of accommodating. I have my top two takeaways from today. What's jumping out for you?

Marsha Clark  33:04  
Yeah so you're my tour guide, you know, as we go. Thank you for that. So my top ones are one, remember that true, authentic, genuine, sincere accommodating means that you will fully accept the position, the decision, the idea, the recommendation of another person. There's no push back and there's no second guessing. That's number one. Number two is be mindful of the potential costs or consequences of either too much accommodating or too little. And when I think about that I also want to say relationships, this flat structure in relationships are so important to women and why I think there are more women who default to accommodating is that we think that to protect the relationship at all costs. And the all cost is not just to forego the result I might want but it might also be to forego my own mental health, self awareness, self respect that I sometimes guilt about hurting somebody else's feelings, that this belief that I just have to please everybody else or be liked by everybody else is a real danger point there and again, the overuse of accommodating in particular. And I do... a third one comes to mind is that recognizing the time and place for acknowledging and really authentically honoring the experience, the wisdom, that positional authority or hierarchy, you know, in this sense of obeying orders, that all of that there's a time and place to do that and to obey orders is not to acquiesce. It's to really understand the reasoning behind them and then to act accordingly.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  35:02  
Wow. So I am really looking forward to next week's episode where we're going to focus on the next conflict response, which is collaborate.

Marsha Clark  35:12  
Yes. And you know, the title of that episode is "Win Win Isn't Always Win Win."

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  35:21  
I can't wait till we get into that one.

Marsha Clark  35:24  
Yes, it's going to be fun. And it's one much as we talked about compete has an almost automatic negative connotation, collaborate has an almost always positive connotation. And yet I will say again as a constant reminder with every one of these, know what tool to use when. All five are valid in the right situations.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  35:44  
Yes, yes, yes. Wow. Okay. Well, thank you all, listeners, for joining us today on our journey of authentic powerful leadership. Please download, subscribe and share this podcast wherever you like to listen. Visit Marsha's website at for links to all the tools, the resources we talked about today, buy her book, "Embracing Your Power", follow her on social media and subscribe to her email list.

Marsha Clark  36:14  
Yeah, thank you for that Wendi as always, and, you know, I want to say to our listeners, you know, even in the accommodating and dare I also add this as the ask for what you want. You know, we go through this ending each and every time about share, subscribe, and you know, all of that. And I do hope that as you think about these things and you think about people in your lives that might benefit from this, that you send them and you know, we're on LinkedIn, and we're on Facebook, and so on. And, you know, share that with your network or your community because I'm just hearing more and more from those who have, how beneficial the people who have been introduced to it that don't know me, that don't know you, Wendi, (right) that don't know anything about any of this, right. And I was I was talking with someone recently, and they were talking about using the book as a guide for they had a group of mentees. So they were mentoring a group of young women. And so she bought the book and shared it with her mentees. And even after the very first reading that they had done, and then they found the podcast that supported that part of the book. The women, the young women, even earlier in their careers came back and said, How does she know my story? (Yeah) I feel like she was talking directly to me!

And I just want our listeners to recognize that they're doing I hope they think so a gift, if you're still listening time after time, after time, you're getting some value from it and offer that up to other people in your network. And because there's been just a particular volume of people that have been coming back to me because they're introducing more and more of this now that they've gotten comfortable and know what it's about. And it's become a part of their routine. They're now offering it up to others. And I just I make the ask of our listeners that if you think it is valuable that you continue sharing that because it goes back to my word of accessibility. This is no good if people can't access it, don't know it exists and don't have the opportunity to learn.

Wendi McGowan-Ellis  38:15  
And it's an opportunity for women to connect with each other over a shared experience and shared learning to where we can all have "aha moments" together. So I love these ideas of women using this book within a mentee relationship but also in a you know, in a peer relationship, peer to peer as well.

Marsha Clark  38:40  
Book clubs. I mean, I wrote it with those kinds of shared learning experiences in mind. You know, this idea of women offering and sharing with other women is a perfect close. Because it is a way for us to continue to support one another. So as always, thank you listeners, and here's to women supporting women!

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